Tell me about P50Es/VHT Fatbottoms

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Spaceboy

Spaceboy

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I'm about grab one but I'm not sure what they sound like. I've seen them described as smoother Vintage 30s and also compared to Greenbacks. I'm probably either going to be running a VH140C or AMT Marshall preamp into it. I'm mostly playing indie rock and pop punk sort of music right now.
 
If you do a search on this, you'll see a lengthy thread that had noob_pwn and me at the helm, along with several other heavy hitters on this forum - discussing the pluses and minuses of the P50E within the FatBottom and Deliverance cab. I've opted for the Deliverance 4x12 due to the fact it's being driven by a very tight, dry amp/preamp set up. I wanted a bit of spank and sizzle in the cab, not just surgical precision and hi-fi. Here's an excerpt that you may have already come across, but otherwise, use the search function on this page and you'll get a mess of goodies relating DIRECTLY to your question.

FWIW, I was skeptical about the P50E's, and furthermore, they're notorious for sounding a bit like ass for the first 40+ hours before they're broken in. It's AFTER they've been broken in they apparently sing like none other. I've got my new Deliverance doling out "MP3's" at 50% volume in an ISO area to break in - I'm serious. Once that's done (tomorrow), she'll be re-tested and I'll be able to hear - if any - and more than likely - the difference.

Here's the blurb:
The P50E speaker is custom built to SFD specifications by Eminence, and is only available from Steven Fryette Design, Inc. The P50E is not an OEM version of the Eminence Redcoat or Patriot series speaker lines.

It is difficult to discuss the sonic characteristics of the P50E or any speaker for that matter, in isolation because so much of speaker behavior depends on the environment in which it is operating - that is to say, 2X12 cab, 4X12 cab, front-mount, rear-mount, wood type, construction style, playing volume, etc, etc. Having said all that lets talk about the P50E versus the popular Celestion Vintage 30 in a Fryette 4X12 FatBottom straight cab.

The P50E is actually a 50-watt speaker. The V30, although officially rated at 60 watts is in reality closer to 75 watts. The P50E has a smaller magnet than the V30, which insures that the speaker will break up at lower amplifier power than a V30. However, the V30 has a more compliant suspension, which together with the larger magnet causes the speaker to move more-low end. This also causes more distortion in the higher frequencies contributing to a harsh top end. The highly compliant suspension makes it difficult for the speaker to track low frequencies especially at high volume levels and this causes a “woofy” sound when playing staccato chording (‘palm muting”). It is also partly why the P50E, although lower in power handling capacity, seems to produce about as much low end as a V30, yet with better control of the low end. The smaller magnet on the P50E also contributes to a softer, more natural sounding high-end response, which is not smeared out by the sloppy suspension, as is the case with the V30. Finally, the Fryette cabinet is a front loaded type, producing a more open, well-dispersed sound. Front mounting a V30 is less desirable as the harshness on the top end, which is normally masked in a rear-mounted enclosure, is now more audible.

The result is that the P50E, while not a particularly scooped speaker, can sound a bit that way in a Fryette cab, or more like a tighter, smoother V30 with a more focused low midrange. Now take those speakers out of the Fryette FatBottom cab which does a good job of controlling the speakers bottom end response and put them in a traditional style 4X12 enclosure, which does everything but control bottom end behavior. Now the rear-mounted P50E will lose some top end clarity and the bottom end control will be diminished, causing it to sound much more like a Greenback but with a little bit more spank. The V30 by comparison will sound smoother on top, but the low-end difficulties will be highly exaggerated.

Another very important consideration in the comparison has to do with the age and condition of the speakers under test. The P50E is not factory “preconditioned” as many OEM speakers might be or might claim to be. This means that depending on usage, it may take as little as a month or as long as 6 months for the speaker to “break in”. A V30 will be looser and warmer out of the box, but also is brighter and tighter than it will be 4 months from now (with regular use). The V30 will mellow out a bit over time, but the low-end control issues will be exaggerated. By the same token, the P50E, while retaining good bottom end control will sweeten up and smooth out over time.

Comparing the FatBottom to the Deliverance cabs, the FatBottom series cabs loaded with the P50 speaker is considered modern sounding and exhibits lots of projection, low-end control and excellent tonal detail. The Deliverance cab on the other hand will sound warmer, looser and sweeter than the FatBottom cab even though they use the same speaker. The Deliverance cab is designed to make the speaker fatter and warmer sounding, as might happen in a traditional 4X12 cab design, but without the traditional boomy, sloppy rattling low end. The ability to identify and manipulate key elements of cabinet construction gives us control over those speaker parameters we wish to suppress or enhance.

The difference between front mounted speakers and rear mounted speakers is subtle and both methods have their pros and cons. Overall we find front mounting to be preferable. Those who would disagree must realize that it is difficult to compare based on the sound of other manufacturers cabs because construction method and material type/quality play a much larger part than mounting method in determining the sound of the cab and behavior of the speaker.

Finally, all of the above depends on the amp in response to which the speakers’ mids, top and bottom will all shift around in concert with the difference in behavior between 100 watts or 50 for example. Keep in mind that this discussion assumes all speakers in the comparison are 16 ohms, as the P50E is only available in 16 ohms. This is important since the impedance of the amplifier load will dramatically affect the behavior of the amplifier due to damping factor and frequency response.


V.
 
And here's an excerpt from an email I recevied direct from Fryette Support:

Mo,

Thank you for contacting FRYETTE AMPLIFICATION support.

There are ways to accelerate the break-in process. All involve a certain amount of risk. Probably the easiest way is to plug a media player into the power amp and play recorded music at a healthy volume for a day. Another way is to run a low frequency signal (something below the audible range like 10-20hz) into the power amp at a level where you clearly see the speakers moving and let it run for a day. Check in on it regularly as you will be creating heat.

Bear in mind that there will still be some additional break-in occuring over time.

Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.

SFD Support Team

Steven Fryette Design, Inc.
Fryette Amplification


V.
 
FWIW, the Deliverance 4x12 is built beautifully well - perfect seaming, perfect tolex, perfect everything. It weighs in at 95 pounds, feels very solid to hoist and move around, is wired for mono & stereo. The speakers are rated at 50W each, and the sensitivity is rated at 98dB making them a touch quieter watt-per-watt than the V30's or the G12K's or the like. I like the fact that these had Steven Fryette's hand in their design - they are not just a simple rebrand, they're the real deal meant to go specifically into the FB or Deliverance cabs.

Considering most heads on top of it are 100W give or take, you'd be getting into some nice break up with these puppies. I have a 4x12 loaded with G12K100's and they're stiff sounding - very very linear. But for the amp driving it, it's the sound that works for me. In the case of this new rig I've got, I wanted something more chewy and sizzlin', hopefully I've found it. My report will follow after a couple weeks of wanking on this new rig.

V./Mo
 
I have written a fair amount on this subject as I have 2 Fatbottom cabs. I sold the P50Es after about 8 months of using them because I found out that I just preferred V30s better. They also work very well in the FB cabs, the bass response is incredible and super tight.

One thing I will say about the P50E is that it is not like a V30 at all, IMO (which may be a good thing for some folks). Totally different mid content. For super high gain they are really great, for anything else I found them to be lacking. Of course, YMMV.
 
killertone":1yfv6gxw said:
I have written a fair amount on this subject as I have 2 Fatbottom cabs. I sold the P50Es after about 8 months of using them because I found out that I just preferred V30s better. They also work very well in the FB cabs, the bass response is incredible and super tight.

One thing I will say about the P50E is that it is not like a V30 at all, IMO (which may be a good thing for some folks). Totally different mid content. For super high gain they are really great, for anything else I found them to be lacking. Of course, YMMV.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ THIS GUY = one of the aforementioned "heavy hitters" I eluded to.

V. :thumbsup:
 
I have gone back and forth on the P50e. I have come to the conclusion that I am more of a Vintage 30 guy with my current amp lineup. I think the VHT/Fryette amps sound fantastic with the P50 and my Madison but not so much with my other amps. They have an even keel to them. Nothing really jumps out at you, like the mids on a V30 tend to do. They don't really sound mid scooped to me per say but may have that perception when compared to a mid heavy speaker. Some people describe the speaker as mid scooped but I don't feel that way. They are a pretty smooth speaker and have a solid hit on the bottom end. YMMV, not bustin on the speaker at all but it just needs to be properly matched with the amp.

I have to agree with Ventura on the quality of the FB cab. The build quality is superb and that is why I am keeping mine and reloading with V30 (maybe an X pattern with some Scumbacks when my wallet allows it). ;) I would assume this is also why Killertone has kept his cabs and just reloaded. The quality is on par or better than all the best cab makers out there IMO.

I also prefer the fact that they are front loaded cabs.
 
killertone":w3kex679 said:
I have written a fair amount on this subject as I have 2 Fatbottom cabs. I sold the P50Es after about 8 months of using them because I found out that I just preferred V30s better. They also work very well in the FB cabs, the bass response is incredible and super tight.

One thing I will say about the P50E is that it is not like a V30 at all, IMO (which may be a good thing for some folks). Totally different mid content. For super high gain they are really great, for anything else I found them to be lacking. Of course, YMMV.
Yeah I sold off my P50's as well! V30'S Sound awesome in a FB
 
Thanks, so much solid information here! I've been searching through Google, YouTube, etc., but neglected to do a board search for some reason. I'll find that thread about the Fryette/VHT cabinets.

Personally, I'm not really keen on Vintage 30s when not paired with another speaker. They seem harsh to me, although Mesa Vintage 30s sound really good for certain amplifiers. I previously had Vader cabinets with stock Eminence Legends, which sounded great with Peavey 5150 and Randall RH200, but with the VH140C and lower gain, they didn't have much presence. They didn't seem as durable as their reputation leads on either. The P50Es sound like they might be exactly what I'm looking for. It's a few years old from when the company was VHT instead of Fryette, and previously owned by a larger touring back from the area, so it's well broken in.

He's wanting 400 smackers which that sounds like a deal to me. I'm going to see if I can grab it tomorrow. Thanks so much fellas!
 
Some pretty great descriptions here. So I'll just simply add that I love P50E speakers. So tight and aggressive.

That's all :thumbsup:
 
Mid scooped, tight and aggressive, etc.

As per an email I received from Steve himself, he said the cab is what makes the difference with the P50E's. The FatBottom is tight as hell, super articulate and surgically percussive. To me?? That would NOT bode well with a Mak4 and Fryette 2/90/2. Why? Because that set up is dry like sand. So I asked about getting something "juicier" in the mix - boom - the Deliverance it is. Little looser, little more organic, little more sizzle. I'm pumped :rock:

But I gotsta say I am super glad to get out from the V30 umbrella - shit man, for like HOW many years?? Every cab, every X pattern, every description, every comparison...V30. I need something different. So I'm cool, and of course YMMV.

Peace,
V.
 
David_kessler":2ui14cao said:
Here is another option for ya outside Asheville...

http://asheville.craigslist.org/msg/2221393485.html
Hmm, I've been wanting a Vintage 2x12 lately, but I've always thought those speakers were a little harsh, and I'm not sure how they would sound in a front-loaded cabinet. I might have to shoot this person an email anyways though. Thanks for the heads up!
 
Okay, here is my voice on this one:

With VHT heads, especially the Deliverance, the P50E is THE PERFECT match. The Deliverance Cabinet/Deliverance Head combo is so freaking amazing, its out of control.

I do not like P50Es with ANYTHING other than VHT stuff. I've heard it sound good on one occasion with a Framus Cobra, and on another with a 5150, but that was about it.
 
lolzgreg":1eq7bsmx said:
I do not like P50Es with ANYTHING other than VHT stuff. I've heard it sound good on one occasion with a Framus Cobra, and on another with a 5150, but that was about it.

I never played a VHT amp through my VHT (Fryette) cabs when they had P50Es in them but I can say that my Fortin sounded good through them. My Herbert, Blackmore, and JVM sounded terrible through them. All the amps felt stiff and lifeless. Now my Fatbottom cabs have V30s in them and they sound badass with all of my heads but especially the Evil Pumpkin.
 
I take it the front-loaded Vintage 30s is working for you then? How much different does that sound from rear-mounted as in other cabinets? I might try to grab that Vintage 30 2x12 Fatbottom mentioned earlier along with the P50E 4x12.
 
Dehumanize":24x18r2g said:
I take it the front-loaded Vintage 30s is working for you then? How much different does that sound from rear-mounted as in other cabinets? I might try to grab that Vintage 30 2x12 Fatbottom mentioned earlier along with the P50E 4x12.

Yup. The P50Es just didn't work well with all of my heads. Since I have 2 FB cabs, I changed one to V30s and left the other one with P50Es. I did a blind test and preferred the V30 just about every time. Then I switched the other cab to V30s and sold all of the P50Es.

The front loaded V30s can be bright for sure. Great thing about my main amp is that the EQ is super sensitive so I just adjust the treble content and I'm all good.

Fwiw, I don't want to sound like I am dissing the P50E...I actually gigged with them for about 8 months and really liked them. It wasn't until I did the blind test that I switched. One of the main reasons that I got the FB cabs was because I wanted to get away from using V30s after 15 years and try something new. Turns out, the V30 is just my thing.
 
Front mounted V30s have this really cool snarl to them, at least in my Engl Pro cabinet. The sound is super aggressive, has a really subtle scoop, and really slams through a mix.
 
I've had several VHT cabs and loved them all, but the P50 is probably my least favorite speaker.
 
lolzgreg":na6m27au said:
Front mounted V30s have this really cool snarl to them, at least in my Engl Pro cabinet. The sound is super aggressive, has a really subtle scoop, and really slams through a mix.


This is the key right here. I made the mistake of letting another guitarist use my Engl SE and XXL pro cab (front load V30 oversized) while I used the Herbert thru the VHT/P50 cab and he shit all over me. The drummer said he could not hear me all night and no matter what I tried to do (mostly a shitload of volume) the V30 cab just handed me my ass. :doh: :gethim: Motherfuckinfuck. I realize it's not a volume war but it would be nice to at least be heard. :confused:

I have since put 2 V30's on top and it made a HUGE difference in cutting for my amps. I have two more V30's on the way to complete the cab. Even with only 2 it simply cuts in the most crushing way.

I like the tone of the P50e by itslef but in a mix it's V30 for my current amps.

Dehumanize: Try and get them both if you can and then make the decision for yourself based on your specific needs (I know, easier said than done but still)
 
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