The I chord in major...scale choices + substitutions.

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degenaro

degenaro

Well-known member
Actually, first the disclaimer. As teaching is a form of
passing of information, here's where mine is coming from: The
ideas behind subs and the scales to go with it, are originated from my studying Grove's, Mock's, and Gambale's approach to that subject. Here we ho, we'll start with the three main forms in major and then the
remaining 6 in minor. And then plurality.

Tonights guest is the the the I Major chord.

To sub for the major (with the same function) use any of
the diatonic
or altered forms listed. The scales are to play through the
chord, but
add chromatic passingtones by taste.
For the sake of argument we're using C as key.
I suggest the major scale, one can use the
major pentatonic
(nothing than a major scale minus the fourth and
seventh)

Diatonic Forms
Chord----spelling----scale choice

Cmajor---c,e,g-------C major, C lydian (4th mode Gmajor)

C6------- c.e.g.a-----C maj, C lyd

Cmaj7----c,e,g,b-----C maj, C lyd

Cmaj9----c,e,g,b,d---C maj, C lyd

C69------c,e,g,a,d--C maj, C lyd

Cmaj9#11--c,e,g,b,d,f#---C lydian

C69#11----c,e,g,a,d,f#---C lydian

Cmaj13#11-c,e,g,b,d,f#,a---C lydian

Altered Forms

Csus4------c,f,g---C major

C6b5-------c,e,gb,a--C lydian

Cmaj7b5---c,e,g#,b---A harmonic minor

Cmaj9b5---c,e,gb,b,d---C lydian

Cmaj9#5---c,e,g#,b,d---A harmonic minor

C69b5------c,e,gba,d---C lydian

Cmaj9#11#5--c,e,g#,b,d,f#---A melodic minor

Cmaj13#11#5--c,e,g#,d,d,f#,a--A melodic minor

Obviously the lydian stuff
would be for subs on the IV chord (not in blues though!!)
Any questions/comments? Let me know.
 
Hahaha, +1. That was a bit hard to follow unless ya got some previous knowlege under your belt.
 
batotman":780c7 said:
Umm.....I'm supposed to be in Theory for Beginners? :(
Click to expand...
Wrong thread? :)
That said toy should be abl to understand that you can use a C69 instead of a C major chord, or that over a C major7 you can use the C major (ionian) or C lydian scale.
 
Code001":02c24 said:
Hahaha, +1. That was a bit hard to follow unless ya got some previous knowlege under your belt.
Click to expand...
Then ask questions about what you don't understand. Gotta start some where...
 
degenaro":1845f said:
Wrong thread? :)
That said toy should be abl to understand that you can use a C69 instead of a C major chord, or that over a C major7 you can use the C major (ionian) or C lydian scale.
Click to expand...

I guess I'm gonna have to wait for the beginners forum. I don't know a single thing you wrote. I just play em. :(
 
degenaro":ebb57 said:
Then ask questions about what you don't understand. Gotta start some where...
Click to expand...

Haha, you asked for it bro.

degenaro":ebb57 said:
Here we go, we'll start with the three main forms in major and then the
remaining 6 in minor. And then plurality.
Click to expand...

Main forms of what? By major, I'm assuming the actual major scale? Again, forms of what in reference to the 6 in minor? Plurality? Might wanna expand on that too.

degenaro":ebb57 said:
Tonights guest is the the the I Major chord.
Click to expand...

I. You mean as in tonic? Might wanna reiterate that from those who didn't check the other thread.

degenaro":ebb57 said:
To sub for the major (with the same function) use any of
the diatonic
or altered forms listed. The scales are to play through the
chord, but
add chromatic passingtones by taste.
For the sake of argument we're using C as key.
I suggest the major scale, one can use the
major pentatonic
(nothing than a major scale minus the fourth and
seventh)
Click to expand...

Sub? What do you mean by that? I see the forms listed below so that's ok. "The scales are to play through the chord." What do you mean by that exactly? Chromatic passingtones? Key of C is fine (for me). I also understand the major scale minor the fourth and seventh, but for those who do not, you might want to expand on that.

Ya gotta remember Ed, you're talking to beginners here mostly. Even those extremely mundane details should be expanded upon in as much detail as possible without becoming overly complex and confusing.

Edit: My suggestion for you would be to place a level rating at the beginning of each main topic post. Like, 1-5 or 1-10, 1 being for very basic beginners. It would prevent stuff like what I did from happening and could also encourage someone (like myself) to read part of this and start a whole new thread asking questions about those items instead of dumbing down those who are already more advanced. Just an opinion though. Dunno if it would work.
 
can you spell out the C lyd for me? i was taught that its the same just starting on the third (fourth?), but that just never seemed right to me. :?

i recognize most of it at least...
 
That's ALOT of information there for one lesson...but very cool and helpful stuff!

Just take it one line at a time...

Cmajor---c,e,g-------C major, C lydian (4th mode Gmajor)

Means when playing over a C major chord (which is based on C...E...G)
The scales that fit well over it are C major and C lydian.

Here's a very good site to help you see the scale on the fretboard...
http://jguitar.com/scale?root=C&scale=Lydian&fret=0&labels=none&notes=sharps

It would be good pratice for beginners to record yourself playing a C major chord for a few minutes with a click track, then play it back and alternate between the 2 scales (C major and C lydian) over top of it, so you can get a feel for how they work and why they work over a C major chord...training your ear is the most important thing as I musician IMO. It's cool to hear how moving one note in a scale (up or down) really alters the entire feel of what you are playing.

Then try moving on to the next line Ed posted...

C6------- c.e.g.a-----C maj, C lyd

...and so on. :)
 
bcfoxtransy":0696f said:
can you spell out the C lyd for me? i was taught that its the same just starting on the third (fourth?), but that just never seemed right to me. :?

i recognize most of it at least...
Click to expand...
C lydian is actually just the G major scale, but begin from C rather than G.
 
So C, E and G refer to the notes that make up the chord he lists? Then he lists what scale(s) would fit well over those chords?
 
One thing - be sure if you are jamming with a band, that you and any other instrument that has pitch are on the same wavelength. If your bassist is playing parts in regular C (all naturals, no sharps or flats) and you decide to venture out in lydian-ville, the first time you hit an F# and he hits an F are going to be jarring. This is one thing I really like about playing lead over simple bass lines - the less they explore pitch-wise, the more you can stretch out. The more extended/complex the chords and bass line, the more you're restricted if you want to color within the lines.

Pete
 
Thanks Ed! Very cool stuff! You have actually inspired me to check out some more complicated ideas than I have been looking at lately.

I have some pretty effective methods for teaching basic diatonic theory that some of the guys seem to be looking for in this thread. It was developed from trying to sneak theory in to students who were more interested in playing "Smells Like Teen Spirit"

When the theory forum gets going, maybe I can write this stuff up.

Questions for Ed,
1.) First of all, some of the chords you are spelling out have too many notes to be played by 4 fingers and/or don't lend themselves to being bar chords. Are there specific notes that you leave out of extended chords because they are less important in the chord? For example, drop the 5th or drop the 3rd because they are less important or because they are implied by the 7, 9, 11, 13 or whatever?

2) Second, you say the "Lydian stuff" would be subs for the IV chord. So in the above post, you are giving us concepts that some of the chords will work behind I - C Ionian and IV - C Lydian, some of the chord extensions will work with just I - C Ionian and some of them will work with just IV - C Lydian which is the IV in the key of G Major?

I haven't given much thought to the theory side of things in YEARS. Ed's got me interested again! Thanks :study:
 
Randy Van Sykes":5c042 said:
That's ALOT of information there for one lesson...but very cool and helpful stuff!

Just take it one line at a time...

Cmajor---c,e,g-------C major, C lydian (4th mode Gmajor)

Means when playing over a C major chord (which is based on C...E...G)
The scales that fit well over it are C major and C lydian.

Here's a very good site to help you see the scale on the fretboard...
http://jguitar.com/scale?root=C&scale=Lydian&fret=0&labels=none&notes=sharps

It would be good pratice for beginners to record yourself playing a C major chord for a few minutes with a click track, then play it back and alternate between the 2 scales (C major and C lydian) over top of it, so you can get a feel for how they work and why they work over a C major chord...training your ear is the most important thing as I musician IMO. It's cool to hear how moving one note in a scale (up or down) really alters the entire feel of what you are playing.

Then try moving on to the next line Ed posted...

C6------- c.e.g.a-----C maj, C lyd

...and so on. :)
Click to expand...

I am glad and sad you are here :) :cry:

Glad due to your skills and comp skills

Sad because during improv jams with what we have learned you are going to make me look really bad :x
 
Thanks Ed, will be working this out with the help of my chord book of course.
 
Holy crap this thread is better than sex, well almost. Please keep it going and someone make the subforum already.
 
Ed, I posted this in the other thread but I'll post it here as well:

Is there a table or matrix of valid substitutions or are substitutions fluid depending on other factors?

Like you mentioned sub for I is the vi for instance....
 
STEEL KAGE":eb2c8 said:
You lost me at actually...........
Click to expand...

No kidding, prof Ed would not be on the football teams course load for sure :?
 
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