Tone is in the fingers - Mythbusters style

[amiller]

Actually, I think the EJ example is terrible. His playing is great, of course, but the tone is ... awful.

 

[stephen sawall]

If you take 20 guitar players and have them play the same riffs and have them all play on the same rig without touching a single knob or anything else and you do not hear major differences I think you have hearing problems ?

I think the test in the first posted in this thread will show that reamping gets mediocre results at best and not much more....

 

[Zachman]

If you take 20 guitar players and have them play the same riffs and have them all play on the same rig without touching a single knob or anything else and you do not hear major differences I think you have hearing problems ?I think the test in the first posted in this thread will show that reamping gets mediocre results at best and not much more....

Agree...

On the other hand-- You can have 1 guy, and plug him into 20 different rigs-- all set different and he'll sound different sonically, not necessarily stylistically-- but the touch follows the player that is certain.

I think the main thing in the tone is in the fingers debates/discussions is there are many who utilize terms like "Sound", "Tone", & "Style" as though they're synonymous with each other, and they're not.

Anyone who wants to discount the impact that fingers has-- and that gear has on the end result is ignorant, or being intentionally obtuse.

 

[stephen sawall]

Agree...

On the other hand-- You can have 1 guy, and plug him into 20 different rigs-- all set different and he'll sound different sonically, not necessarily stylistically-- but the touch follows the player that is certain.

Anyone who wants to discount the impact that fingers has-- and that gear has on the end result is ignorant, or being intentionally obtuse.

Probably the reason I have about 20 amps ....

Intentionally obtuse ..... usually only for about the first hour or so after I wake up. After that it seems to fade away for whatever reason, I think it is the Irish in me ?

Remember that ad from Fender "the soul of tone" .... Tone has a soul and Fender is selling it ....

 

[kasperjensen]

A Ferrari won't make you a better driver.

A Ferrari will however let a good driver unleash his/her potential.

It does also present the "Opportunity" to accomplish things that just aren't possible in let's say, in a Pinto, despite the driver's prowess or status. And... the exhaust note definitely stands apart from the Pinto, no matter who is revving the motor.

Good point.

 

[spirit7]

To the OP, the idea's a cool one, but it's not feasible as the reamp is happening outside of the original equation. I'm neither a 'tone in is the fingers' or 'tone is in the rig' kida a guy, that's inconsequential to the concept, but what's happening here, is if you ARE trying to prove or disprove that tone is in the fingers, it has to be proven at the time of incidence, not after. So, in this case, it would be EVH having to conjure something out of a Pignose, or Randy trying to conjure something out of a Traynor TS-15 or the like. It has to happen at the time of incidence to hold any water - otherwise it's a separate incident and relationship.

Parallel versus deductive versus incidental logic, argument and reasoning. No dice. There'd be a 'strange loop' in the argument when written down as:

Bob created Eddie.
Eddie created Sam.
Sam created Bob.

Sam is the reamp.

Mo

This! It's both.

-C

 

[squank]

...Anyone who wants to discount the impact that fingers has-- and that gear has on the end result is ignorant, or being intentionally obtuse.

Good summary.

Tone is from your gear. Style is from you/your hands. The overall sound you get is a combination, and it's just as much one as the other.


The whole idea that "guitar player 'X' can play through anything and sound great" is really kind of silly. Guitarist X can play through any gear, and his particular style will shine through, and you will recognize that. In other words, he will "still sound like him." But that doesn't mean he'll have good tone.

 

[Zachman]

...Anyone who wants to discount the impact that fingers has-- and that gear has on the end result is ignorant, or being intentionally obtuse.

Good summary.

Tone is from your gear. Style is from you/your hands. The overall sound you get is a combination, and it's just as much one as the other.


The whole idea that "guitar player 'X' can play through anything and sound great" is really kind of silly. Guitarist X can play through any gear, and his particular style will shine through, and you will recognize that. In other words, he will "still sound like him." But that doesn't mean he'll have good tone.

I've always thought of it like this: Tone is perceived in the brain. It starts with a concept, within the brain of the player, and manifests via the player manipulating (In our case guitar gear) with their hands/fingers (Technique + Technology). That overall result produces sound waves, which travel through the air and get to the listener's brain via the ears.

Tone-- in our case is a process, which relies on Technique and Equipment. It starts w/ the hands, it just doesn't end there. If it did, gear wouldn't be required at all. As it is-- unless you're clapping, whistling using your fingers, or making fart noises-- gear is required for the hands to make musical sounds, and gear clearly can alter the tones that the hands are capable of creating.

 

[petejt]

There is a solution.


Have the musician play their guitar into a signal chain that gets split- one side to their own rig, and the other to the re-amp device for recording.

That way, the raw signal is captured which can then be used to 'test out' other gear for the hypothesis, at the same time that the musician is able to project their reactions to playing with their own gear.

 

[bsp01]

"a knock off pig nose guitar with a peavey backstage 30 with a digitech rp 200"

Maybe not his *best* tone, but sounds like Joe.

 

[Ventura]

...Anyone who wants to discount the impact that fingers has-- and that gear has on the end result is ignorant, or being intentionally obtuse.

Good summary.

Tone is from your gear. Style is from you/your hands. The overall sound you get is a combination, and it's just as much one as the other.


The whole idea that "guitar player 'X' can play through anything and sound great" is really kind of silly. Guitarist X can play through any gear, and his particular style will shine through, and you will recognize that. In other words, he will "still sound like him." But that doesn't mean he'll have good tone.

I've always thought of it like this: Tone is perceived in the brain. It starts with a concept, within the brain of the player, and manifests via the player manipulating (In our case guitar gear) with their hands/fingers (Technique + Technology). That overall result produces sound waves, which travel through the air and get to the listener's brain via the ears.

Tone-- in our case is a process, which relies on Technique and Equipment. It starts w/ the hands, it just doesn't end there. If it did, gear wouldn't be required at all. As it is-- unless you're clapping, whistling using your fingers, or making fart noises-- gear is required for the hands to make musical sounds, and gear clearly can alter the tones that the hands are capable of creating.

Which also comes back to 'tone is in the ear of the beholder'.

There are certain timbres and frequencies that reonate pleasurably with the listener. It doesn't make it good or bad, it is just a reaction. It's up to the person to dig or not dig.

I've never been one for the EVH tone, call me nuts. And I think Gibbons of ZZ is utter garbage. So considering how many cats LOVE these 2 above mentioned cats, I know I'm in the non-norm. And this isn't a dislike for their music, I dig ZZ's music and quite a few of the older VH tunes. It just so happens, tracks on their own, I don't love their tone.

Peace,
Mo

 

[Gainfreak]

Ok if this is retarded just keep moving on - or bust my ballz if needed. I dont know jack about recording. I have been wondering what "reamping" is so I googled it. Seems to me this would be a great way to put the "tone is in the fingers" belief to the test.

Has anyone ever (assuming it can be done) taken a track from one the greats like EVH, George Lynch, Randy Rhoads, Petrucci, Satch, Vai, Aldrich, De Martini etc and performed a reamp using an amp with that is known or commonly agreed to have a horrible tone? I think it would be interesting to say the least.

Blast away for feel free to comment.

Here you go. Now tell me these two tones are the same:

 

[Zachman]

Which also comes back to 'tone is in the ear of the beholder'.

True

There are certain timbres and frequencies that reonate pleasurably with the listener.

True

It doesn't make it good or bad, it is just a reaction.

The way I see it -- it does, for the listener anyway. Subjective opinions count. Some-- just more than others.

It's up to the person to dig or not dig.

True

I've never been one for the EVH tone, call me nuts.

You're nuts

And I think Gibbons of ZZ is utter garbage. So considering how many cats LOVE these 2 above mentioned cats, I know I'm in the non-norm. And this isn't a dislike for their music, I dig ZZ's music and quite a few of the older VH tunes. It just so happens, tracks on their own, I don't love their tone.

Peace,
Mo

Good or bad isn't my point at all. Gear provides a potential for the player. It'll either provide tonal freedom or limitations, for the player to express their musical ideas.

 

[stephen sawall]

A lot of people when they re-amp use something that compresses and / or rolls off the bass before the amp. Like distortion, OD, Compressor, etc. What this does is very much eliminate the the persons personal touch and makes everyone sound the same. It also works like a band-aid / mask to cover up the fact the musician is not directly interacting with amp / amps. This is a very common practice.

Bottom line is everyone sounds different because of their hands .... the gear is only extra beyond that. Without the hand creating tone there is no gear sound at all. It is in the hands first that creates the sound and tone with many string instruments. The gear can only shape what is already in the hands ...not the other way around. There is no tone in a amplifier ..... it only shapes what is already there without the amp.

Like Bob said we need a actual definition of the word "tone" .... at this time it has several meanings. Much like the word god / gods has many meanings .... it is going to mean very different things to different people...

 

[squank]

"a knock off pig nose guitar with a peavey backstage 30 with a digitech rp 200"

Maybe not his *best* tone, but sounds like Joe.

This is a great example of gear affecting tone.

This is not the guitar or amp that Joe usually uses, and his tone is terrible.

To be fair, I don't know how much of the crappiness is due to the video camera mic.

 

[stephen sawall]

Of course the gear shapes the sound and tone ... but it is not even their without the fingers. The gear does not create anything .... it only shapes what is already their. If you like the end results or not has nothing to do with this ...

 

[Ventura]

Which also comes back to 'tone is in the ear of the beholder'.

True

There are certain timbres and frequencies that reonate pleasurably with the listener.

True

It doesn't make it good or bad, it is just a reaction.

The way I see it -- it does, for the listener anyway. Subjective opinions count. Some-- just more than others.

It's up to the person to dig or not dig.

True

I've never been one for the EVH tone, call me nuts.

You're nuts

And I think Gibbons of ZZ is utter garbage. So considering how many cats LOVE these 2 above mentioned cats, I know I'm in the non-norm. And this isn't a dislike for their music, I dig ZZ's music and quite a few of the older VH tunes. It just so happens, tracks on their own, I don't love their tone.

Peace,
Mo

Good or bad isn't my point at all. Gear provides a potential for the player. It'll either provide tonal freedom or limitations, for the player to express their musical ideas.

100% agreed on this one

Mo

 

[xXxGhotimanxXx]

Adam Jones is known for having a tough tone to duplicate...his tone has been linked to his fingers, his multiple amps including a Diezel VH4, speaker phase and recording voodoo, etc., etc. Here's me playing Aenema on a Marshall MG...an amp that many despise due to it being solid state. This is probably my most popular video, as far as views, and I think I did pretty good with the tone, considering . No fancy studio, no post processing, just my Macbook and a Shure SM57 to capture my guitar and the backing track at the same time.

J

 

[Zachman]

Of course the gear shapes the sound and tone ... but it is not even their without the fingers. The gear does not create anything .... it only shapes what is already their. If you like the end results or not has nothing to do with this ...

Slide guitar is a great illustration of how gear shapes the tone vs fingers-- since well... the fingers aren't in the equation, rather it's the slide.

OR open string tuning and strumming...

You RAWK Pete and we are not in disagreement at all...

The important part of it all is making music worth listening to...

 

[stephen sawall]

I think you can hear a difference in slide players if they play on the same rig with nothing changed ? I can ...

Strumming a guitar in open tuning without fretting or slide ..... not sure if that is really playing a guitar, if you know what I mean ? But even then the picking hand does have a strong effect on the tone and final results.