UFC:104 Spoiler inside

  • Thread starter Thread starter IHateRap
  • Start date Start date
Bob Savage":3rntz498 said:
Guys, sixstrings is a real fighter and stuff. Just listen, and he'll learn you all somethin'. Just take a look at his post below. He walks the walk.

sixstrings":3rntz498 said:
Again, I think for the average viewer it's very deceptive. Most people don't know exactly what to look for.


sixstrings":3rntz498 said:
I agree that there is an "assumption of ignorance," etc. in these types of debates but it depends on who you're talking to. If you're talking to someone with the training and ring experience, then there's going to be a gap in knowledge between them and the people they're talking to.

I've heard a lot of people talk in the past. I've heard monstrous looking muscle heads talk about martial arts and fighting and how people don't know this and that, but I'm the first one to say "let's put on the gloves." As much as I like discussing these things, I much much prefer actually going in and doing it. 99.9% of the time, all the talk is just talk. In fact, I'm known for that at the school I train at because it's happened before. People were intimidated by this guy who looked really strong and fast. When it came time to put on the gloves, he couldn't handle the power and accuracy. I wasn't even trying to prove a point or anything. I just wanted to spar him because I wanted to face the fear. He quit shortly after and never returned.

I've known people who have trained for years, and by the look of their solid technique and agility, I thought they would be a force in a real fight. Most of the time those things go away and they fail to not only maintain their technique, but they can't take the strikes. When you are in the shit, and the shit is raining down hard on you, that's when you know where you stand among men.

You can go to gyms and see muscular and fit looking people who walk with a tough swagger, nightclubs where the bouncers look and act like forces to be reckoned with, and even convicts in prison who look like they can eat you for breakfast, but 99.9% of the time, they're all clueless of how powerful you are compared to them. They are completely oblivious to what you are capable of doing to them should the frightful occassion ever arise.

Then all of their strength and conditioning and street fighting means very little because they never before have met with your discipline, fierceness, speed and sheer power.

People talk about Brock Lesnar like he's the most powerful man on earth, but they just don't know. He is a strong man, but not a real powerful striker. People assume because he's an immense guy that he's so powerful, but they don't know the difference between strength and power. He's not a powerful fighter. He's just very strong and explosive. I would be willing to bet a great deal that Machida or Silva could take him out.

So yes, talk is just talk. If you want to learn something, listen not just to people who have been in the ring, but people who have transcended the mere wrestler, boxer, brawler levels and become masters of the fighting arts. Those are the people I'd rather listen to than anyone else.

It's so easy for the fickle public to criticize Machida or even Shogun, but they are totally clueless about what it's like when you have such skilled fighters facing each other in a cage in front of millions and millions of people. So people can criticize either fighter all they want, but I know what I know and I won't buy into any of it.

Take a look at the replay and come to your own conclusion. It was a close fight. I can tell you though that Machida lands a lot of strikes that most people just don't see. You have to look for it. He had Shogun in trouble a few times. Shogun wore down Machida's legs, but Machida did win most of the exchanges. That's what made the difference in the fight. I'm not going to sit here and blame shitty judging or whatever.

I applaud Shogun for making a comeback, coming in with a great game plan, and showing the heart of a champion. I applaud Machida for facing adversity the first time and overcoming it. Both men are top echelon fighters and that's all there is to it.

More of the same from Bob here, but at least he's predictable. I am a great teacher as a matter of fact. You're welcome to my school any time Bob, and I never make invitations that I don't plan on honoring. I'll ask the master of the dojang to give you two weeks free tuition and a free uniform. See, I'm a nice guy. You just have to get to know me better :thumbsup:

Shawn Lutz":3rntz498 said:
I thought he won too but I guess it wasnt convincingly enough for the judges to hand him the belt. To take the title from the champ you really have to kick his ass in the UFC. Actually was a boring main event fight imho, I hate bouts that are decided by decisions .

It's like that always. This is one instance where you really can't blame the judges. It was too close to clearly define a winner. I'll bet that reviews of the replay will settle many peoples' minds about the decision on Machida. Obviously, however, a rematch is necessary.
 
Before watching the fight I was thinking Rua is going to get his ass smoke opon. At the end of the fight I was thinking what the hell happen to Machida and how did he win!? Fun to watch but didn't think the out come was far. Glad there will be a rematch.

Six- I think Brock Lesner is a powerful striker/fighter. I mean did you see Frank Mir's face after getting punched by Lesner. From what I remember most of his striking was close range.
 
jasonP":ofkgxa8t said:
Before watching the fight I was thinking Rua is going to get his ass smoke opon. At the end of the fight I was thinking what the hell happen to Machida and how did he win!? Fun to watch but didn't think the out come was far. Glad there will be a rematch.

Six- I think Brock Lesner is a powerful striker/fighter. I mean did you see Frank Mir's face after getting punched by Lesner. From what I remember most of his striking was close range.

Yes, I posted the same thing to. I thought Machida would come just short of murdering Shogun. I had a few reasons for that even though Shogun is one of my favorite fighters. First of all, Rua is younger than Machida but he's had a pretty seasoned fight career in Pride. Fighters have a limited shelf life. His conditioning was a factor when he lost to Forrest, and in his fight with Coleman. He didn't look real sharp in the Liddell fight, but he pulled off a knock out.

Machida has the speed and timing advantage, and still has quite a good life left in his MMA career. Going on these things, and also because I think Machida is the best contender for Anderson Silva, I chose Machida as the winner. Indeed I was surprised, but then again every fighter has bad nights. If that was a bad night for Machida going up against a top condition Shogun, then Machida is still the baddest dude in MMA!

As far as Brock Lesnar, well he's going to have a considerable amount of power from brute force alone. He doesn't have, nor probably ever will, have the precision and speed required to be a powerful striker. Muscle mass and explosiveness has little to do with striking power. Striking power comes from speed, accuracy and the cordination of your core power.

Frank Mir is awesome on the ground, and although he has considerable improved his striking, he's not anywhere near Machida or Anderson Silva's striking ability. Lesnar would have trouble with Chieck Kongo from strikes and because he's such a big muscled fighter that he won't as easily be able to push him around as Mir. Obviously Lesnar would be a huge threat to Kongo on the ground, but it's a match I'd like to see way more than Carwin/Lesnar.

In any case, there are so many things up in the air and with Machida on the brink right now, We're back to the same 3 - Fedor, St.Pierre and Anderson Silva.

Fedor has a huge obstacle in front of him, a man that can threaten the hardest heavyweights like Lesnar and Carwin. St.Pierre has to pull off a huge win against all odds to cement his legacy as P4P best all-time MMA fighter. Anderson Silva needs to face adversity from another fighter or he will never obtain that certification. Machida needs to put an exclamation point on the rematch or fade. Shogun must beat Machida and then beat Anderson Silva to get to the end of the road where he was headed before his injuries and subsequent loss to Griffin.

Lots to ponder!
 
Good insights there sixstrings, I'm thinking the same way on all of that.
 
Code001":6c9zuave said:
Dojang? You do ITF or WTF?

WTF guidelines, Kukkiwon certification.

Crunch Master":6c9zuave said:
Good insights there sixstrings, I'm thinking the same way on all of that.

Thanks dude.
 
sixstrings":g6xaty5z said:
More of the same from Bob here, but at least he's predictable. I am a great teacher as a matter of fact. You're welcome to my school any time Bob, and I never make invitations that I don't plan on honoring. I'll ask the master of the dojang to give you two weeks free tuition and a free uniform. See, I'm a nice guy. You just have to get to know me better :thumbsup:

Predictable? HAHAHAHA... Look everybody, the Internet Tough Guy® has invited me to his dojo for a whuppin'!!!!

Now, THAT is predictable.

By the way, I responded to your diatribe on the OT forum. You can drop this anytime you like, and I will remain civil with you. It's all up to you. Remember, I'm not the one that dragged TGP thing over here, you are.
 
Sorry but the Machida/Shogun fight just put UFC right down there with boxing. Each round should be scored on its own individual merits and I only saw 1 round that could be given to Machida in that fight. He was NEVER the agressor, and ONLY counterpunched the entire fight. He never imposed his will on shogun in any way, shape, or form. He looked like he was fighting to "Not LOSE" vice trying to win. Shogun punished him the entire fight and I thought controlled him the ENTIRE fight except for MAYBE a few minutes of 1 round. It pissed me off so bad that I know it will definitely be the LAST pay per view I ever buy. It LITERALLY reminded me of so many robberies I saw in Boxing....it was SHAMEFUL. Anyone who honestly believes that Machida WON that fight is crazy. Shogun WON that fight....it doesnt matter who the champ was in the beginning of the fight....you have 5 scored rounds and NONE of the judges have the same rounds won on thier scorecards....its freekin INSANE....same BS that boxing goes through. It would have been better off to go to old UFC days....2 guys go in...no time limit...someone either gets KO'd or submitted....putting judges in the mix just took away all validation of this "sport" You cant say that Shogun won the fight but didnt do enough to take away the belt....wtf is that??? HE either won or he lost....and its obvious to 98% of the public saw a COMPLETELY different fight than the judges...
 
Bob Savage":2qpcxafn said:
sixstrings":2qpcxafn said:
More of the same from Bob here, but at least he's predictable. I am a great teacher as a matter of fact. You're welcome to my school any time Bob, and I never make invitations that I don't plan on honoring. I'll ask the master of the dojang to give you two weeks free tuition and a free uniform. See, I'm a nice guy. You just have to get to know me better :thumbsup:

Predictable? HAHAHAHA... Look everybody, the Internet Tough Guy® has invited me to his dojo for a whuppin'!!!!

Now, THAT is predictable.

By the way, I responded to your diatribe on the OT forum. You can drop this anytime you like, and I will remain civil with you. It's all up to you. Remember, I'm not the one that dragged TGP thing over here, you are.

Again Bob, your peculiar recall of facts is predictable. I didn't invite you for a "whuppin." I invited you to learn something instead of sitting around your computer talking smack and accusing other people of being "Internet Tough Guys." Obviously you have more interest in flame wars than learning something.

Like I said before, be a man and bring this personal shit to me directly instead of parading around the Internet with it. There's a little PM button on my profile where you can go and talk all the smack you want. No one wants to hear it around here. You're just poluting the forum with this shit.

RedRider":2qpcxafn said:
Sorry but the Machida/Shogun fight just put UFC right down there with boxing. Each round should be scored on its own individual merits and I only saw 1 round that could be given to Machida in that fight. He was NEVER the agressor, and ONLY counterpunched the entire fight. He never imposed his will on shogun in any way, shape, or form. He looked like he was fighting to "Not LOSE" vice trying to win. Shogun punished him the entire fight and I thought controlled him the ENTIRE fight except for MAYBE a few minutes of 1 round. It pissed me off so bad that I know it will definitely be the LAST pay per view I ever buy. It LITERALLY reminded me of so many robberies I saw in Boxing....it was SHAMEFUL. Anyone who honestly believes that Machida WON that fight is crazy. Shogun WON that fight....it doesnt matter who the champ was in the beginning of the fight....you have 5 scored rounds and NONE of the judges have the same rounds won on thier scorecards....its freekin INSANE....same BS that boxing goes through. It would have been better off to go to old UFC days....2 guys go in...no time limit...someone either gets KO'd or submitted....putting judges in the mix just took away all validation of this "sport" You cant say that Shogun won the fight but didnt do enough to take away the belt....wtf is that??? HE either won or he lost....and its obvious to 98% of the public saw a COMPLETELY different fight than the judges...

You don't have to be "crazy" to see that Machida won the fight on points. Of course Machida isn't going to bring it like Shogun because Machida is naturally a counter-puncher. That's not his style. However, he did in several instances advance with his own aggression throughout the fight. In fact, Machida was uncharacteristically aggressive at the very outset when he grabbed Shogun in the Muy Thai clench and shot a few knees.

The fight was close, there's no doubting that. There's probably a general consensus that Shogun won, but whether he was a clear winner is definitely debatable. Watching a fight on TV and seeing it from the judges table is a whole different experience. You can hear the strikes, you can see the grimmaces, hear the grunts, and you obviously have a much better perspective than people get through the camera.

I watched the replay a couple of times and can tell you that my initial impression that Shogun was a little cheated has changed. It became clear to me that Machida did land his share of strikes and defended every takedown attempt. He was the winner on points. As for damage, I think Shogun had the edge on leg damage, but Machida did hit him with some solid shots that made Shogun want to avoid standing and trading with him.
 
sixstrings":3jbahtr0 said:
Again Bob, your peculiar recall of facts is predictable. I didn't invite you for a "whuppin." I invited you to learn something instead of sitting around your computer talking smack and accusing other people of being "Internet Tough Guys." Obviously you have more interest in flame wars than learning something.

Right, so you invited me to another state because you want to teach me some technique? LOL... now THAT is funny. Your Internet challenge is quite obvious so please, don't insult the intelligence of me and the others who use this forum and try twisting the meaning of what you said. It's been done over and over on the net, and the intent is always the same.

Like I said before, be a man and bring this personal shit to me directly instead of parading around the Internet with it. There's a little PM button on my profile where you can go and talk all the smack you want. No one wants to hear it around here. You're just poluting the forum with this shit.

Why don't you lead by example? You keep inferring that you're the better man, and are going to just drop this so the "pollution" will end, and then you continue blabbing off.

It can end any time you want it to.
 
Bob Savage":1rhordia said:
YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP

Sorry Bob, all I heard was "YAP YAP YAP" again. Look, I promise before the whole forum that if you PM me all your bullshit that I won't report it to anyone. It will be just between you and I. You have my word on that so it's safe to stop the internet tirade.



-----{Back to the thread....}-----

So anyway, that was one hell of a fight. I watched the replays and it was such a technical battle. It was a good match and I'm on board with the Machida decision, but I would have been just as content with a Shogun decision too. The rematch will be very good.
 
sixstrings":3p3b5367 said:
You have my word on that so it's safe to stop the internet tirade.

Excellent, and glad to hear it.
 
sixstrings":3d5s9igq said:
Bob Savage":3d5s9igq said:
YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP

Sorry Bob, all I heard was "YAP YAP YAP" again. Look, I promise before the whole forum that if you PM me all your bullshit that I won't report it to anyone. It will be just between you and I. You have my word on that so it's safe to stop the internet tirade.
Really? Wheres the Facepalm smiley when you need it...

Relax Francis, youre making an ass out of yourself but go ahead and continue if it suits you. Just when I thought that we had a handle on the riff raff around here...

Back to the thread, Cool fight, bad decision.
 
Gainzilla":1q9ollok said:
sixstrings":1q9ollok said:
Bob Savage":1q9ollok said:
YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP YAP

Sorry Bob, all I heard was "YAP YAP YAP" again. Look, I promise before the whole forum that if you PM me all your bullshit that I won't report it to anyone. It will be just between you and I. You have my word on that so it's safe to stop the internet tirade.
Really? Wheres the Facepalm smiley when you need it...

Relax Francis, youre making an ass out of yourself but go ahead and continue if it suits you. Just when I thought that we had a handle on the riff raff around here...

Back to the thread, Cool fight, bad decision.

Yeah ok. I thought moderators were supposed to be a bit more objective. At the least, you could have addressed both sides. I guess if you tangle with Bob then you have to tangle with his friends too.

... yeah it WAS indeed a cool fight... carry on.
 
RedRider":2xlswy5u said:
Sorry but the Machida/Shogun fight just put UFC right down there with boxing. Each round should be scored on its own individual merits and I only saw 1 round that could be given to Machida in that fight. He was NEVER the agressor, and ONLY counterpunched the entire fight. He never imposed his will on shogun in any way, shape, or form. He looked like he was fighting to "Not LOSE" vice trying to win. Shogun punished him the entire fight and I thought controlled him the ENTIRE fight except for MAYBE a few minutes of 1 round. It pissed me off so bad that I know it will definitely be the LAST pay per view I ever buy. It LITERALLY reminded me of so many robberies I saw in Boxing....it was SHAMEFUL. Anyone who honestly believes that Machida WON that fight is crazy. Shogun WON that fight....it doesnt matter who the champ was in the beginning of the fight....you have 5 scored rounds and NONE of the judges have the same rounds won on thier scorecards....its freekin INSANE....same BS that boxing goes through. It would have been better off to go to old UFC days....2 guys go in...no time limit...someone either gets KO'd or submitted....putting judges in the mix just took away all validation of this "sport" You cant say that Shogun won the fight but didnt do enough to take away the belt....wtf is that??? HE either won or he lost....and its obvious to 98% of the public saw a COMPLETELY different fight than the judges...

I am just surprised that people think that Shogun was the aggressor and dominating, I didn't see much of that at all. The damage he landed himself was counter strikes against machida mostly. Everytime he went in, machida got out of the way or blocked, stuffed the takedown many times (in fact Rua NEVER imposed his will on Machida). Imposing his will would of meant that machida was taken down many times (never happened), that he lost in the clinch (even). In fact the ref broke up 2 clinches because The aggressor could not do anything, that should tell you something. Perhaps from this perspective you can see that Rua never actually imposed his will or controlled the fight, all of his offensive attempts were basically crossed off. Had he taken down Machida on the many attempts to, then it may have been a different story, but he never once truly imposed his will but with a kick and a hit here and there, never pressing enough to be considered dominating. Both fighters were cautious, all of this talk about Shogun being the dominate aggressor, I honestly have no clue where that is coming from, cause that wasn't the case in either fighter's approach.
 
TKD beatdown!!!!! Where's the snax icon when ya need it!!!! ? :lol: :LOL:
 
sixstrings":wy82xos5 said:
Yeah ok. I thought moderators were supposed to be a bit more objective. At the least, you could have addressed both sides. I guess if you tangle with Bob then you have to tangle with his friends too.

If there was something to address on Bob's side, I would have. He called you on something and you reacted with a pretty lame case of obvious butthurt. The fact that Bob is a friend had nothing to do with my comment, I would have had said the same thing regardless of whom you said it to. Im sorry that youre so sensitive and will make a note of it for future reparte :thumbsup:
 
Audioholic":h9yivm22 said:
Usuaually to strip a title, you have to earn it, and Rua didn't do enough apparently in the judges eyes. Like it or not, it has nothing to do with the UFC bottom line.

While that appears to be the case and I've heard it said numerous times, that is absolute BS for a judging criteria; don't you agree?

If that's a criteria then it's definately in favour of the UFC bottom line....

The criteria are Effective striking, grappling, agression and octagon control.
 
JKD":21uleynu said:
Audioholic":21uleynu said:
Usuaually to strip a title, you have to earn it, and Rua didn't do enough apparently in the judges eyes. Like it or not, it has nothing to do with the UFC bottom line.

While that appears to be the case and I've heard it said numerous times, that is absolute BS for a judging criteria; don't you agree?

If that's a criteria then it's definately in favour of the UFC bottom line....

The criteria are Effective striking, grappling, agression and octagon control.


I think if we brake that criteria down, we can see why Rua didn't win. Grappling - Rua never effectively controlled the grappling, in fact when Rua went for the clinch, it was so anti-climatic that the ref broke it up at least twice. Rua Failed in the clinch, specially since he is a muay tai guy, that should of been his strong suite. Machida had better knees to the head when they clinched in the center. Take downs, Rua NEVER got a take down!!!, out of how many attempts? So in that case, he failed as well. Heck even when Machida slipped, Rua could NOT take him down. Octagon control? Most of the fight was kept near the middle, with sway's back and forth. Whenever Rua pressed in, Machida got out of the way most of the time and it went right back to a standoff, so I argue no clear octagon control by Rua. Effective stricking, this is where Shogun had very good success, landed some great leg shots, alot of those were counters. And when Rua went in, Machida went in for the counter as well, many times he landed a hard body shot, or a shot to the face, even if Rua's hands were up, I gaurantee you, he ate gloves, even if it was his own.
Shogun was not a clear winner, I don't see him dominating in these criteria, except having some good strikes. I have watched this fight several times, and my mind is still not convinced that Rua won.
 
Thanks for the answer man...I almost typed out the same thing to qualify why decisions get made in a theoretical sense....since I haven't actually seen the fight yet. :D

People get too involved in the emotion of the thing...while I don't believe the judges are perfect (there's some real goofballs in there with a long track record of wtf?) they are attempting to do their best with a difficult mechanism.

I don't like 10 point must, especially not for short fights....5 rounds is just about enough....but 3 rounds, hopeless...couple that with the subjective criteria of "Effective" (which of course must be there :D) and there are bound to be upsets...
 
Back
Top