Various Rack Rig Questions

[ghosty999]

Got a few questions I've been building up as I've tweaked my Rack Rig Set Up. Photos below.

I've started gigging as a solo 80s/AOR style act using Reaper to trigger all my MIDI patch changes etc so I can play keys, guitar and sing live.

My current guitar rig is:
Charvel SanDimas MIM ProMod
JMP-1 -> Rocktron Intellifx (Parallel FX Loop) -> EL84 20/20

Question 1:
My tone is cool but I find the the notes don't sustain, I added a compressor at the front of the rig and it did the job but also introduced loads of noise and colors the tone slightly. I also upgraded valves in both pre and power stage. What else is best? a Clean Boost?

Question 2:
The EL84 20/20 runs into a V30 2x12 and just sounds really woofy and muddy. Can't get a tight bottom end. It's almost in the high bass/low mid range so isn't resolved with the post gain EQ on the marshal. What would help with this? An EQ right at the front of the chain?

Question 3: The speaker sim outputs are....meh... what would get a better sound? Running the FX out into some Cab IRs or using something like the Mooer Radar? Don't really have the funds right now for a load box.

Question 4: Is a power conditioner really that important in a rack rig? I currently use a Samson power distro with surge protection etc. I play in a lot of old 400+ year old buildings with questionable wiring.

Question 5: Is the Rocktron worth swapping for a more modern unit? I used to have the Gmajor 2 but found it awful to program on the fly.

Cheersss!!

 

[paulyc]

Axe FX all the way. Or Helix.

 

[lockingtuner]

My current guitar rig is:
Charvel SanDimas MIM ProMod
JMP-1 -> Rocktron Intellifx (Parallel FX Loop) -> EL84 20/20

Question 1:
My tone is cool but I find the the notes don't sustain, I added a compressor at the front of the rig and it did the job but also introduced loads of noise and colors the tone slightly. I also upgraded valves in both pre and power stage. What else is best? a Clean Boost?

How's the action on your guitar set? Try raising it a little and see if you get better sustain. You may want to check if removing the fretwrap helps.

Question 2:
The EL84 20/20 runs into a V30 2x12 and just sounds really woofy and muddy. Can't get a tight bottom end. It's almost in the high bass/low mid range so isn't resolved with the post gain EQ on the marshal. What would help with this? An EQ right at the front of the chain?

A lot of possibilities here. Have you tried a different cab?

Question 4: Is a power conditioner really that important in a rack rig? I currently use a Samson power distro with surge protection etc. I play in a lot of old 400+ year old buildings with questionable wiring.

I've seen different opinions on this. If you want to see whether it makes a difference for your rig without spending too much, you can often find older Furmans in good shape for a decent price on Reverb.

 

[jabps]

Staying with the old school setup...keep the Samson if it has good surge protection. Even with pedal board setup I still use my Furman.

Might want to run a overdrive/boost in front of the Marshall. Might help you get a little more juice. I'd also throw in Chinese 12Ax7's. I personally prefer those as they are brighter IMO. And I personally would nix the compressor for this setup. I always liked the JMP-1 but also always felt it needed more usable gain, thus why I recommend the overdrive/boost.

Rocktron, that's a great unit...if it's in proper working order, keep it. One of the best multi effects units ever built, regardless of price.

Power Amp, I'd probably go with something EL34 based for more Marshally tone or 6L6 if you want a rounder tone.

Make sure all your levels/line switches are working and set properly as well.

Speaker sims...I'd look at something else as opposed the JMP-1. Kinda harsh. Hughes & Kettner just relaunched the old Red Box, those were always decent boxes and the new one has more options and it's cheap.

 

[dirtyfunkg]

My current guitar rig is:
Charvel SanDimas MIM ProMod
JMP-1 -> Rocktron Intellifx (Parallel FX Loop) -> EL84 20/20

Question 1:
My tone is cool but I find the the notes don't sustain, I added a compressor at the front of the rig and it did the job but also introduced loads of noise and colors the tone slightly. I also upgraded valves in both pre and power stage. What else is best? a Clean Boost?

How's the action on your guitar set? Try raising it a little and see if you get better sustain. You may want to check if removing the fretwrap helps.

Question 2:
The EL84 20/20 runs into a V30 2x12 and just sounds really woofy and muddy. Can't get a tight bottom end. It's almost in the high bass/low mid range so isn't resolved with the post gain EQ on the marshal. What would help with this? An EQ right at the front of the chain?

A lot of possibilities here. Have you tried a different cab?

Question 4: Is a power conditioner really that important in a rack rig? I currently use a Samson power distro with surge protection etc. I play in a lot of old 400+ year old buildings with questionable wiring.

I've seen different opinions on this. If you want to see whether it makes a difference for your rig without spending too much, you can often find older Furmans in good shape for a decent price on Reverb.

For the cab, the first thing I'd check is if the speakers are out of phase with one another.

 

[ghosty999]

Axe FX all the way. Or Helix.

Always the answer... I know :/ I just find myself always drawn back to weird rack gear. It might be a solution down the line once the Axe3 drops in price

 

[ghosty999]

My current guitar rig is:
Charvel SanDimas MIM ProMod
JMP-1 -> Rocktron Intellifx (Parallel FX Loop) -> EL84 20/20

Question 1:
My tone is cool but I find the the notes don't sustain, I added a compressor at the front of the rig and it did the job but also introduced loads of noise and colors the tone slightly. I also upgraded valves in both pre and power stage. What else is best? a Clean Boost?

How's the action on your guitar set? Try raising it a little and see if you get better sustain. You may want to check if removing the fretwrap helps.

I recently got a full pro set up with a slightly more raised action, it helped a bit but seems to be more at the amp end of things as it sings for days through anything digital

Question 2:
The EL84 20/20 runs into a V30 2x12 and just sounds really woofy and muddy. Can't get a tight bottom end. It's almost in the high bass/low mid range so isn't resolved with the post gain EQ on the marshal. What would help with this? An EQ right at the front of the chain?

A lot of possibilities here. Have you tried a different cab?

The cab is one of those Thomann V30s 2x12s, about 6 months old! I tried through a Marshall 2x10 and similar results, woofy low mid range.

Question 4: Is a power conditioner really that important in a rack rig? I currently use a Samson power distro with surge protection etc. I play in a lot of old 400+ year old buildings with questionable wiring.

I've seen different opinions on this. If you want to see whether it makes a difference for your rig without spending too much, you can often find older Furmans in good shape for a decent price on Reverb.

I think it's time to move to the Furman! Thanks!

 

[ghosty999]

Staying with the old school setup...keep the Samson if it has good surge protection. Even with pedal board setup I still use my Furman.

Might want to run a overdrive/boost in front of the Marshall. Might help you get a little more juice. I'd also throw in Chinese 12Ax7's. I personally prefer those as they are brighter IMO. And I personally would nix the compressor for this setup. I always liked the JMP-1 but also always felt it needed more usable gain, thus why I recommend the overdrive/boost.

Rocktron, that's a great unit...if it's in proper working order, keep it. One of the best multi effects units ever built, regardless of price.

Power Amp, I'd probably go with something EL34 based for more Marshally tone or 6L6 if you want a rounder tone.

Make sure all your levels/line switches are working and set properly as well.

Speaker sims...I'd look at something else as opposed the JMP-1. Kinda harsh. Hughes & Kettner just relaunched the old Red Box, those were always decent boxes and the new one has more options and it's cheap.

Than's for confirming my "old school rack" bias haha. I used Mesa tubes in the EL84 and TunSols in the Pre. Helped a bit with top end bite. I will look into throw a TS or DOD infront.

That's great the Rocktron is still usable in 2019! I shall keep it, it's in average condition but works fine.

There is a line level switch on the back of the JMP-1, should this be engaged for my setup? I think it's a -8db cut or something

 

[lockingtuner]

I recently got a full pro set up with a slightly more raised action, it helped a bit but seems to be more at the amp end of things as it sings for days through anything digital

I wonder if this is related to your issue below.

The cab is one of those Thomann V30s 2x12s, about 6 months old! I tried through a Marshall 2x10 and similar results, woofy low mid range.

Have you ever been able to get a good low end out of the 20/20? Or has this been an issue as long as you've had it?

 

[shredhead7]

I had an MP1 and the JMP1 at the same time, and while the Marshall was maybe a tad more organic, I felt the MP1 had a better tone. The Marshall just lacked something, though I know others have used them to great effect. As was mentioned, it doesn't hurt to try a boost, but you are going to be tap dancing as that will introduce noise and if you're switching between clean and distortion, you will have one more thing (unless you add a switcher/mixer).

2x12 are typically woofy, they don't have the cab size to accommodate the lower frequencies. There isn't much to do there, unless you want to upgrade to an oversized cab or a 4x12. If you go direct, you're looking at spending more money for a great speaker sim. You might be able to find the old ADA speaker sim, it wasn't bad in it's day, keeping it retro.

I was never a fan of the 20 watt power amps, whether it was the Mesa, ADA, or Marshall variety. They all lack the punch and depth of the larger 50 watt units. If you are looking at upgrading, the Marshall bigger bloc versions are killer, but weigh A LOT, as do the Mesas. The Peavey classic (I think it is a called) is a nice alternative and reasonably priced.

 

[ghosty999]

I recently got a full pro set up with a slightly more raised action, it helped a bit but seems to be more at the amp end of things as it sings for days through anything digital

I wonder if this is related to your issue below.

The cab is one of those Thomann V30s 2x12s, about 6 months old! I tried through a Marshall 2x10 and similar results, woofy low mid range.

Have you ever been able to get a good low end out of the 20/20? Or has this been an issue as long as you've had it?

Hmm interesting, I can diffidently get bass from the amp, it's the woofy and barking tone that over powers the tone. I tried it with the 8008 Solid State Valve State and it was much the same if not a little less woofy.

 

[stratjacket]

Question 1:
My tone is cool but I find the the notes don't sustain, I added a compressor at the front of the rig and it did the job but also introduced loads of noise and colors the tone slightly. I also upgraded valves in both pre and power stage. What else is best? a Clean Boost?

This could be any number of things; old strings, weak pickups, pickup height, dead spots on fretboard, not enough gain or boost.

Question 2:
The EL84 20/20 runs into a V30 2x12 and just sounds really woofy and muddy. Can't get a tight bottom end. It's almost in the high bass/low mid range so isn't resolved with the post gain EQ on the marshal. What would help with this? An EQ right at the front of the chain?

Question 3: The speaker sim outputs are....meh... what would get a better sound? Running the FX out into some Cab IRs or using something like the Mooer Radar? Don't really have the funds right now for a load box.

For Questions 2+3, are you using Speaker sims and then running into a guitar cab? That may be the issue.

Question 4: Is a power conditioner really that important in a rack rig? I currently use a Samson power distro with surge protection etc. I play in a lot of old 400+ year old buildings with questionable wiring.

Being an old electronics technician and systems engineer, clean power is UBER important. I believe it's the source of most gremlins. I would invest in a good conditioner, they're not very expensive.

Not sure if I helped, but a few thoughts anyway.

 

[ghosty999]

I had an MP1 and the JMP1 at the same time, and while the Marshall was maybe a tad more organic, I felt the MP1 had a better tone. The Marshall just lacked something, though I know others have used them to great effect. As was mentioned, it doesn't hurt to try a boost, but you are going to be tap dancing as that will introduce noise and if you're switching between clean and distortion, you will have one more thing (unless you add a switcher/mixer).

2x12 are typically woofy, they don't have the cab size to accommodate the lower frequencies. There isn't much to do there, unless you want to upgrade to an oversized cab or a 4x12. If you go direct, you're looking at spending more money for a great speaker sim. You might be able to find the old ADA speaker sim, it wasn't bad in it's day, keeping it retro.

I was never a fan of the 20 watt power amps, whether it was the Mesa, ADA, or Marshall variety. They all lack the punch and depth of the larger 50 watt units. If you are looking at upgrading, the Marshall bigger bloc versions are killer, but weigh A LOT, as do the Mesas. The Peavey classic (I think it is a called) is a nice alternative and reasonably priced.

Ahh yes I actually just sold my ADA MP-1, was rad! But just had less use for it whilst trying to limit my rig to just one "valve" amp. The 50 block is overkill for me but it is a very cool unit. So maybe the conclusion is if I want less woof... I need more oomph? hahah Bigger cab, bigger power section and maybe an OD

 

[ghosty999]

Question 1:
My tone is cool but I find the the notes don't sustain, I added a compressor at the front of the rig and it did the job but also introduced loads of noise and colors the tone slightly. I also upgraded valves in both pre and power stage. What else is best? a Clean Boost?

This could be any number of things; old strings, weak pickups, pickup height, dead spots on fretboard, not enough gain or boost.


I've looked into all of these, got a full set up etc and the guitar is loaded with body mounted SD JBs

Question 2:
The EL84 20/20 runs into a V30 2x12 and just sounds really woofy and muddy. Can't get a tight bottom end. It's almost in the high bass/low mid range so isn't resolved with the post gain EQ on the marshal. What would help with this? An EQ right at the front of the chain?

Question 3: The speaker sim outputs are....meh... what would get a better sound? Running the FX out into some Cab IRs or using something like the Mooer Radar? Don't really have the funds right now for a load box.

For Questions 2+3, are you using Speaker sims and then running into a guitar cab? That may be the issue.

I am not, I am mic'ing the cab and running the JMP-1 into the EL84 power section. It's for home recording I was wondering if using IRs + the FX out is best or going full speak sim?

Question 4: Is a power conditioner really that important in a rack rig? I currently use a Samson power distro with surge protection etc. I play in a lot of old 400+ year old buildings with questionable wiring.

Being an old electronics technician and systems engineer, clean power is UBER important. I believe it's the source of most gremlins. I would invest in a good conditioner, they're not very expensive.

Not sure if I helped, but a few thoughts anyway.

That solves my power conditioner question! I'll pick one up

 

[lockingtuner]

I recently got a full pro set up with a slightly more raised action, it helped a bit but seems to be more at the amp end of things as it sings for days through anything digital

I wonder if this is related to your issue below.

The cab is one of those Thomann V30s 2x12s, about 6 months old! I tried through a Marshall 2x10 and similar results, woofy low mid range.

Have you ever been able to get a good low end out of the 20/20? Or has this been an issue as long as you've had it?

Hmm interesting, I can diffidently get bass from the amp, it's the woofy and barking tone that over powers the tone. I tried it with the 8008 Solid State Valve State and it was much the same if not a little less woofy.

Have you tried a different power amp with your rig? The effects loop of a head should work. (Be sure to match impedances and keep your heads and power amps connected to loads when switching cables around.)

 

[jabps]

Staying with the old school setup...keep the Samson if it has good surge protection. Even with pedal board setup I still use my Furman.

Might want to run a overdrive/boost in front of the Marshall. Might help you get a little more juice. I'd also throw in Chinese 12Ax7's. I personally prefer those as they are brighter IMO. And I personally would nix the compressor for this setup. I always liked the JMP-1 but also always felt it needed more usable gain, thus why I recommend the overdrive/boost.

Rocktron, that's a great unit...if it's in proper working order, keep it. One of the best multi effects units ever built, regardless of price.

Power Amp, I'd probably go with something EL34 based for more Marshally tone or 6L6 if you want a rounder tone.

Make sure all your levels/line switches are working and set properly as well.

Speaker sims...I'd look at something else as opposed the JMP-1. Kinda harsh. Hughes & Kettner just relaunched the old Red Box, those were always decent boxes and the new one has more options and it's cheap.

Than's for confirming my "old school rack" bias haha. I used Mesa tubes in the EL84 and TunSols in the Pre. Helped a bit with top end bite. I will look into throw a TS or DOD infront.

That's great the Rocktron is still usable in 2019! I shall keep it, it's in average condition but works fine.

There is a line level switch on the back of the JMP-1, should this be engaged for my setup? I think it's a -8db cut or something

I would set the effects loop at +4 on the Marshall and the Intellifex as well - of course you may already have them set that way. And the ouput on the Marshall at +4 as well.

On your power amp...crank the volume almost all the way up...to about 8 or 9. Leave it there. Use the preamps level as the master. Just drop your preamp levels before doing this...if you aren't already using it like that, don't wanna blow anything up. In fact some say just crank the volume all the way up on a standalone power amp but I always sat mine at 8. But I didn't use the JMP1 as a preamp so be careful here. If the output level on the JMP1 is super sensitive you will need to drop the volume on the amp.

Eq in the front is going to tailor your sound before it hits the front end. In the loop and you can color post pre-amp. Either way will give you different sounds. When I ran a rack setup I preferred it in the loop.

Lsst thing, check your wet levels on the effects loop. Btw/ are you running stereo to those speakers or mono? I think that specific power amp, both sides have to be connected. Check the manual on that.

I agree with shredhead above...probably the first thing I'd change is the power amp. The Peavey Classic series were great as was the Boogie 50/50 for small two space tube power amps.

Those are some things you could try as well if you haven't already. Good luck.

 

[EXPcustom]

I sit here and run through all kinds of rack gear with Mark Cameron and I got to say and Mark agrees that first of all get a 4x12 and your power amp is not cutting it either. Change these two things, first the cab to a 4x12 and power amp to a VHT2150, Classic, Strategy 400, Marshall 9200 or EL34 100 I think you will be one step closer to what you want in terms of tone.

Hope this helps.

ETA, weak power amps are exactly that weak. That's why you never see a power amp like you are using a real recording or touring rig. They just don't cut it.

 

[NewWorldMan]

I've bought lower wattage power amps before thinking I'd use them at home for nights or lower volume situations. In reality, I still ended up plugging into the big boys (e.g., Mesa Strategy 400, Marshall EL34 100/100, etc) for lower volumes too because they just sound bigger regardless.

Power conditioners are always a good idea. I've rarely encountered clean power at a venue, even ones where we played with bigger name/major label bands. I gave less than $100 shipped for my Furman PL-Plus.

I tried the 2X12 route as well, and that lasted one single gig before I sold it and went back to my 4X12s.

 

[EXPcustom]

I've bought lower wattage power amps before thinking I'd use them at home for nights or lower volume situations. In reality, I still ended up plugging into the big boys (e.g., Mesa Strategy 400, Marshall EL34 100/100, etc) for lower volumes too because they just sound bigger regardless.

Power conditioners are always a good idea. I've rarely encountered clean power at a venue, even ones where we played with bigger name/major label bands. I gave less than $100 shipped for my Furman PL-Plus.

I tried the 2X12 route as well, and that lasted one single gig before I sold it and went back to my 4X12s.

That's right and regarding the Furman PL Plus I always made sure I ran the 20 amp version. I think in most instances 15 amps will be fine but I run huge power amps so why chance it. I always found mine on CL or GC used and paid 100 or less as well. I also upgrade the pull out lights to LEDs.

One thing I do want to add was the "smallest" power amp I liked was the Mesa 2:90.

 

[rickenbacker198]

I recently found out with my JMP-1, that if put a massive clean boost before it , that increases the sustain/ cut and makes it sound much better IMO.
The difference is not subtle.