W/D/W Rig with a Mixer

[Anonymous]

Awhile ago people were posting their W/D/W rigs and a discussion came up about mixers. I have been using dry signal in the wet cabs of my setup for awhile, but I always got it from my effects. I thought it sounded really good, but I'm always looking to try new things and psychodave and a few others said adding a mixer can really improve the sound because you aren't going through a bunch of digital conversions on the dry signal in your wet cabs.

I decided to try a mixer, even though I thought my rig sounded really good already. I ended up picking up a MarkL Dual Stereo Line Mixer directly from the company in Poland. Got it quickly and with no issues, which was nice. With this unit, you basically have two stages of effects with the first stage (and dry signal) being fed into the second stage. I put my Eventide PitchFactor and Strymon El Capistan in the first stage, feeding two mono Roland SDE-3000s in the second stage (250ms L/500ms R with a few repeats). Dry signal is present and mixed in both stages. I had to completely re-wire my rack, so I made custom size GeorgeL cables to use throughout, which really cleaned up the rack a lot.

The Mix 1 control sets the level of the summed Mix 1 wet and dry signal. In other words, you set it so that you are getting a proper signal to your Mix 2 effects without overloading them. The Mix 2 control sets the output of the combined signals to your power amp. It's interesting in that the Mix controls do not set the volume of the effects with reference to the dry signal, which is intuitively what I thought they would do. The only way to adjust the amount of wet signal vs. dry is via the effects themselves if they have an output control. The PitchFactor and SDE-3000s do, the El Cap does not. I'd rather have the El Cap in the Mix 2 section, but because it is mono input that wouldn't work - it would only get one side of the pitch shifting effect of the PitchFactor. I would need two El Caps to make it work right in Mix 2 even though it is stereo out.

BOTTOM LINE IF YOU DON"T LIKE READING ALL THIS - I've been running it with just the El Cap, or just the two SDE3000s w/modulation, or with the PitchFactor (micropitchshift) and the two SDE-3000s w/o modulation and I'm blown away at how much better the rig sounds at ANY volume from bedroom to gig. I really didn't think a mixer would make THAT much of a difference, but it really does. The mix of the effects and the dry signal is much more discernable and the dry signal is much clearer and present in the wet cabinets. The MarkL unit cost me about $350 or so, which IMO isn't much for what it does and the significant improvement in the sound. If you are running W/D/W, I highly recommend a mixer of some kind - it is a noticeable improvement for not that much money.

So the rig is Guitar - pedal board - Henning Bottle Rocket amp --> Center Henning 4 x 12 w/30th Anniversary G12H30s

Henning Bottle Rocket amp --> Suhr Iso Line Out --> MarkL Dual Stereo Line Mixer (effects connected to the MarkL as per above) --> Matrix GT 800FX power amp --> Left and Right Henning 4 x 12 cabs w/30th Anniversary G12H30s

Any questions, fire away and I'll answer them if I can...

Pics:

Steve

 

[dfrattaroli]

Cool. Always wondered why some used a mixer. I'm considering putting a w/d/w together again for my home rig. Definitely have to look into one.

 

[metalmaniac93]

I might have to look into this.

 

[JackBootedThug]

steve-your posts are to big...

 

[Anonymous]

steve-your posts are to big...

Too many words? Or you don't like how big the pictures are?

I have a 27" display running at 2560 x 1440 resolution on my iMac and perhaps you are using a smaller monitor with less res?

Looks good on my system... 800 x 600 pics look really small on my monitor...

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Cool. Always wondered why some used a mixer. I'm considering putting a w/d/w together again for my home rig. Definitely have to look into one.

I might have to look into this.

If you are spending all the money to put together a nice W/D/W rig, I highly recommend spending a few more bucks for a mixer for sure.

Steve

 

[metalmaniac93]

Steve,

Wouldn't a RJM Mini Mixer also work if you are only using one delay or running two SDE-3000s for W/D/W.

 

[Anonymous]

Steve,

Wouldn't a RJM Mini Mixer also work if you are only using one delay or running two SDE-3000s for W/D/W.

I would think a RJM Mini Mixer would work fine - I think that is what psychodave uses and he loves it.

However... I liked the idea of having two levels of parallel effects that can be run into each other. Think of it this way - it's really nice to have the left and right micropitchshifted signals from my PitchFactor have the repeats from my delay(s). If you only have parallel effects like the RJM, then I wouldn't be able to do that. You wouldn't hear the pitchshifted sound on the delay repeats. I mean, it's not absolutely necessary, but it's nice to have the options...

Steve

 

[metalmaniac93]

Steve,

Wouldn't a RJM Mini Mixer also work if you are only using one delay or running two SDE-3000s for W/D/W.

I would think a RJM Mini Mixer would work fine - I think that is what psychodave uses and he loves it.

However... I liked the idea of having two levels of parallel effects that can be run into each other. Think of it this way - it's really nice to have the left and right micropitchshifted signals from my PitchFactor have the repeats from my delay(s). If you only have parallel effects like the RJM, then I wouldn't be able to do that. You wouldn't hear the pitchshifted sound on the delay repeats. I mean, it's not absolutely necessary, but it's nice to have the options...

Steve

Ok thanks. I would just be using the SDE3000s.

 

[JackTripper]

Congratz. I purchased a Mark L mixer a while back and love it. Mark's a cool dude, makes affordable products. I run my eventide and tri-chorus in Mix 1, delays and reverb in Mix 2.

 

[JackBootedThug]

steve-your posts are to big...

Too many words? Or you don't like how big the pictures are?

I have a 27" display running at 2560 x 1440 resolution on my iMac and perhaps you are using a smaller monitor with less res?

Looks good on my system... 800 x 600 pics look really small on my monitor...

Steve

busting your nuts....smaller display-I have to keep scrolling right to left every sentence. really cool post btw! anyway you could do a before and after clip? or is it an "in the room" difference?

 

[7 Stringer]

Yeah i was part of that discussion and me too added a mixer with killer tesults. Although mine is little $100 mixer i had layong around and decided to try it. Sounded so good i implemented it in my setup. A bit tricky to setup as a regular mixer has a lot of routing options, but once setup. Damn perfect. I can even have EQ adjustments on the dry tone in the wet cabs.



Very big sounding and crystal clear with no phasey sound like adding dry through the processor.

Great setup you got there man. Isn't WDW fun or what????? With the band it jumps in front the mix great.

 

[Anonymous]

Congratz. I purchased a Mark L mixer a while back and love it. Mark's a cool dude, makes affordable products. I run my eventide and tri-chorus in Mix 1, delays and reverb in Mix 2.

Nice!

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

steve-your posts are to big...

Too many words? Or you don't like how big the pictures are?

I have a 27" display running at 2560 x 1440 resolution on my iMac and perhaps you are using a smaller monitor with less res?

Looks good on my system... 800 x 600 pics look really small on my monitor...

Steve

busting your nuts....smaller display-I have to keep scrolling right to left every sentence. really cool post btw! anyway you could do a before and after clip? or is it an "in the room" difference?

You would definitely be able to hear the difference if I mic'd the three cabs through my DAW. Unfortunately, I couldn't do a before and after because it would require me to completely re-wire my rack back to how it was before I had the mixer, record, then re-wire it back to how it is now and record again. That would be a monumental undertaking to say the least!

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah i was part of that discussion and me too added a mixer with killer tesults. Although mine is little $100 mixer i had layong around and decided to try it. Sounded so good i implemented it in my setup. A bit tricky to setup as a regular mixer has a lot of routing options, but once setup. Damn perfect. I can even have EQ adjustments on the dry tone in the wet cabs.

Very big sounding and crystal clear with no phasey sound like adding dry through the processor.

Great setup you got there man. Isn't WDW fun or what????? With the band it jumps in front the mix great.

For sure! I've been running W/D/W for a long time now, but adding the mixer really made it sound great.

I actually think your "real" multi-channel mixer setup is more versatile because you can adjust the balance between all the parallel wet dry signals vs. dry and even bus signals to get the effect of effects into other effects. I have to rely on my processors output controls to adjust wet/dry balance in the "wet" speakers...

Steve

 

[tfridgen]

I've got an RJM Line Mixer lying around here. Wonder if it's worth it as I'm running a Rocktron Replifex for a few effects and it has an analog mixer built in. Hmmm....

 

[Anonymous]

I need to make a correction here to something I said earlier...

metalmaniac93 asked whether the RJM mini mixer would work with two SDE3000s operating at the same time and I said yes. This is actually wrong. He asked me over PM how to hook it up and I realized it wouldn't work. Here is what I wrote to him, which you may find interesting:

"Oops.... forgot about this. This is one of the main reasons I bought the MarkL unit... The RJM Mini Mixer alone won't work for you...

Unfortunately to do what you want to do you need a loop switcher. If you only had one stereo effect like psychodave, it would be no problem - you'd just need a splitter cable from your line out to the stereo effect and the other is your dry signal and you would send the dry signal and the stereo outs of the effect unit to the Mini Mixer. Unfortunately because you have two mono units, you need three signals: two to feed the two SDE 3000s and one to provide a dry signal to the Mini Mixer. I know of no splitter cables that provide 3 outputs and I wouldn't do that anyway - you are going to get signal degradation.

You see, the MarkL unit combines a loop switcher with the two mixers, so I just do a line out to the MarkL unit and I can feed dry signal to all the other effects I connect to the MarkL, besides the two levels of mixer, you also get a loop switcher, which you need to use both of your SDE 3000s.

For you and me using two SDE3000s at once, the MarkL unit I bought is going to be cheaper and more compact than buying the RJM Mini Mixer and loop switcher..."

Steve

 

[metalmaniac93]

I need to make a correction here to something I said earlier...

metalmaniac93 asked whether the RJM mini mixer would work with two SDE3000s operating at the same time and I said yes. This is actually wrong. He asked me over PM how to hook it up and I realized it wouldn't work. Here is what I wrote to him, which you may find interesting:

"Oops.... forgot about this. This is one of the main reasons I bought the MarkL unit... The RJM Mini Mixer alone won't work for you...

Unfortunately to do what you want to do you need a loop switcher. If you only had one stereo effect like psychodave, it would be no problem - you'd just need a splitter cable from your line out to the stereo effect and the other is your dry signal and you would send the dry signal and the stereo outs of the effect unit to the Mini Mixer. Unfortunately because you have two mono units, you need three signals: two to feed the two SDE 3000s and one to provide a dry signal to the Mini Mixer. I know of no splitter cables that provide 3 outputs and I wouldn't do that anyway - you are going to get signal degradation.

You see, the MarkL unit combines a loop switcher with the two mixers, so I just do a line out to the MarkL unit and I can feed dry signal to all the other effects I connect to the MarkL, besides the two levels of mixer, you also get a loop switcher, which you need to use both of your SDE 3000s.

For you and me using two SDE3000s at once, the MarkL unit I bought is going to be cheaper and more compact than buying the RJM Mini Mixer and loop switcher..."

Steve

Thanks for the info Steve!!! Looks like I will have to purchase the MarkL. How long does it take to ship?

 

[Anonymous]

I need to make a correction here to something I said earlier...

metalmaniac93 asked whether the RJM mini mixer would work with two SDE3000s operating at the same time and I said yes. This is actually wrong. He asked me over PM how to hook it up and I realized it wouldn't work. Here is what I wrote to him, which you may find interesting:

"Oops.... forgot about this. This is one of the main reasons I bought the MarkL unit... The RJM Mini Mixer alone won't work for you...

Unfortunately to do what you want to do you need a loop switcher. If you only had one stereo effect like psychodave, it would be no problem - you'd just need a splitter cable from your line out to the stereo effect and the other is your dry signal and you would send the dry signal and the stereo outs of the effect unit to the Mini Mixer. Unfortunately because you have two mono units, you need three signals: two to feed the two SDE 3000s and one to provide a dry signal to the Mini Mixer. I know of no splitter cables that provide 3 outputs and I wouldn't do that anyway - you are going to get signal degradation.

You see, the MarkL unit combines a loop switcher with the two mixers, so I just do a line out to the MarkL unit and I can feed dry signal to all the other effects I connect to the MarkL, besides the two levels of mixer, you also get a loop switcher, which you need to use both of your SDE 3000s.

For you and me using two SDE3000s at once, the MarkL unit I bought is going to be cheaper and more compact than buying the RJM Mini Mixer and loop switcher..."

Steve

Thanks for the info Steve!!! Looks like I will have to purchase the MarkL. How long does it take to ship?

Mine shipped in two days!

Steve

 

[dfrattaroli]

What kind of mixer would suffice if I only had a timeliness and mobile as far as effects are concerned?