Wattage related to "bigness" of sound?

[Audioholic]

Just curious of opinions on this.

I have been digging and sporting the small amp and wattage trend. I previously had a Blackstar HT-5, Currently Engl Gigmaster 15, and past a rebel 30. In comparison to "largeness" of sound, I think they kinda go in that order, ascending in wattage. Not that the blackstar ht-5 sounded small, but it did lack that fullness of past 100 watters I have had. So is wattage directly proportional, or at least the potential, of an amps ability to sound Bigger and fuller?

I know these terms are somewhat personal, but while I like my 15 watt engl, I don't think it sounds as massive as a deizel.

Of course producing the desired effect with mics is a different story, as you can use proximity and what not to make little things sound bigger.

 

[guitarslinger]

a combination of More speakers + More wattage + big sounding cab design = big sound.

A significant lacking in any of these areas will negatively impact "bigness"


Tough to beat a VHT 2150 into 2 nice 4x12's.

 

[thiswaythatway]

I think the cab you're using has more to do with it.

 

[Audioholic]

yeah obviously the more speakers and air, but speaking about all things being equal, like the same single cab, at a moderate volume (not too loud) etc. Does a bigger watt amp instantly have the advantage of being meatier and wider, then say a low wattage amp? Even if you are not pushing even close to the headroom of 100 watts.

or is preamp design more important?

 

[guitarslinger]

yeah obviously the more speakers and air, but speaking about all things being equal, like the same single cab, at a moderate volume (not too loud) etc. Does a bigger watt amp instantly have the advantage of being meatier and wider, then say a low wattage amp? Even if you are not pushing even close to the headroom of 100 watts.

or is preamp design more important?

IMO, yes.

I almost ALWAYS prefer higher wattage in an apples to apples situation.

 

[Mudder]

I don't know...even at low volumes my Ultra 60 sounds bigger than the ht5 through the same cab. Now, those are pretty different amps, wattage isn't the only factor.

It's almost like there's a variable that figures the ease in which the speakers can be driven. Like listening to a v8 at idle vs a 4 cyl.

 

[jerrydyer]

more watts ,,,, hhmmm? yes BUTU less gain. ever seen a sine wave on scope of a non master and a master volume marshall compared? you ll see what "Bigness" looks like. It has to do with the actual sound wave. Even though we cant hear some bass frequencies, we can feel them.

 

[ejecta]

I played a Reason Bambino Grande this weekend and it's only 20 watts but sounds pretty big through a bigger cab. I think it has more to do with the design than it does watts. More watts can relate to more clean headroom than it can bigness IMHO.

 

[Audioholic]

I guess the real test would be the same preamp circuit through various wattages. We have amps that step down the watts but not sure if that is the same thing.

 

[blackba]

I think what gives the big amps their thump and large sound in many cases is the output transformer. Small amps typically have small output transformers. Big amps have big output transformers. I am sure there is alot more going on.

I had a '66 Fender Champ and ran it through my Bandmaster 212. The Champ sounded great, but always sounded a bit small compared to my '67 Fender Bassman or '69 Bandmaster reverb.

I have been looking at getting a small amp to add to my collection, but I keep going back to the Champ. It was cool that I could crank it to get natural breakup, but I practiced just as loud and I still preferred playing through my other 2 Fender amps.

The new Vox AC15HW has my eye. But I remember with my Vox AC15TBX, it was too loud for home and too soft for band practices. It did sound a little smaller than my Vox AC30CC1, but not a whole lot.

I posted a thread about small amps a while back and basically came to the conclusion at that time, that its no crime to idle Big amps. If I can get the tones I want out of big amps, than there is no issues, even if it means I am using pedals or attenuators to get my gain sounds. Still it does sometimes feel like I am driving a 454 engine at 15mph....

 

[JakeAC5253]

As I am reading the replies, I'd wager it has something to do with headroom as well. Having less headroom to begin with affects the way you design the amp in the first place, what components you choose and so forth, and as I see it, that will have the largest affect on sound as compared to a more high powered amp. Think about if you've ever played with a pedal that could operate at 9V and 18V, did the 18V mode not sound bigger and wider?

 

[Tawlks]

I was thinking this

a combination of More speakers + More wattage + big sounding cab design = big sound.

A significant lacking in any of these areas will negatively impact "bigness"


Tough to beat a VHT 2150 into 2 nice 4x12's.

and this

I think the cab you're using has more to do with it.

 

[glpg80]

mores speakers equals more AC wave reproduction efficiency.

more wattage = more headroom = less total harmonic distortion (THD - google it)

larger cabinets = larger Q = lower resonance frequency.

here, read this. i tune to Eb most of the time - therefore i hate oversized cabinets - they sound too woofy for my tastes no matter what volume i am at. and this is why.

http://www.duncanamps.com/technical/speaker_cab.html

car guys have known this for a long, long time and build boxes tuned to a particular resonate frequency of the speaker they are using and music they plan to listen to. this goes for hifi applications as well.

the "bigness" factor is an equation of many many variables including your tuning...but people are only looking at one or two of the many variables. the size of the OT does not matter. the plate impedance matching of the tube transistors is way more important, guage of wiring and type of magnets and method of plate isolation construction as well as coil insulation properties are what determine a transformers electrical characteristics, not its physical size.

 

[Ventura]

yeah obviously the more speakers and air, but speaking about all things being equal, like the same single cab, at a moderate volume (not too loud) etc. Does a bigger watt amp instantly have the advantage of being meatier and wider, then say a low wattage amp? Even if you are not pushing even close to the headroom of 100 watts.

or is preamp design more important?

Sometimes the opposite is true. An amp of lower output gets pushed more and therefore, blossoms more in the saturated valve department of operations which REALLY fattens up the sound and adds all those sought after overtones.

My knee jerk reaction when I read the title is that it's really tricky business creating a consistent relation of sound quality to output. First off, 'bigness' and 'quality' are highly subjective. Secondly, as mentioned above, the opposite can often be the case - a lower watt amp getting pushed can sound WAY meatier and bigger than a bigass amp playing anemically. Then, there's also the notion of pickups - contrary to popular belief, sometimes the 'anemic' (I use that term again as it's really applicable as an analogous descriptor) pups putting out 8K or 9K cause the amp to require more of itself and therefore, it pushes itself more - as opposed to a high output pup which is like a turbo-charged signal, the amp doesn't need much from the signal other than to boost it and move it along the circuitry. Then there's the relation of 4x12's and their cabinet design and their internal resonant frequencies and so forth. Then there's the actual wattage of the speakers - again - the inverse relationship sometimes occurs where speakers on the cusp of maximum capacity sound way better than those operating at half their capacity. Fine wire to walk...

So there are so many moving targets in this question, it's really hard to answer. At the end of the day, if you have a 100W head, not running moderately, but running at 8 or 10, naturally saturating the power section, through a cabinet holding 4 x 30W or maybe even 4 x 50W speakers - it'll sound shitloads better than if that same amp was running at 2. Conversely, SPL levels being equal to that of the big amp running at 2 in the example above, a 30W amp pumping all its guts and glory through a 50W single 12" dimed will sound better than the same 100W running at 2.

It's all about bell curves and inversions. And as far as the subjective aspects go, there's no charting for that - it's black magic at best

Hope this helps,
V.

PS - and to address "preamp", if this is in the context of "gain stacks", forget about it - an amp at 10 has its natural overdrive happening and the gain knob becomes somewhat redundant. However, other pre functions still maintain, such as EQ, etc. Preamp sizzle is more applicable to bedroom levels trying to attain that driven sound. But until you truly unleash a 100W head at 10, you'll see that NO gain knob or stompbox will EVER achieve the same sound as that.