We should all have neighbors like this

[thiswaythatway]

Typo on the last one. Please, the USA has what, 12 million Illegal Immigrants in the states. You know what Illegals who committ crimes are? A slap in the face to everyone who's trying to come into the USA legally. I personally know some people who were deported because of laws put in place but our fucking retarded President.

A girl i used to date had a brother and sister who had their house raided at 4:00am, they were handcuffed and brought to the airport and thrown on a plane to South America. They have lived here since 1987, attended college, had good jobs, and most of their family lives here. They were in the long process of trying to get citizenship when some asshole ratted them out to the INS. They had to start all over in Peru with NOTHING.

The fact that good people like that get deported and scumbags like these 2 from this case are living here committing crimes makes me sick. Just thought you should know where I'm coming from.

 

[Copperhead]

Danyeo, I totally agree. I think the #1 priority should be sealing the border. Then we can decide what to do with who is already here.
I think first off, everyone gets registered. Then all should be given a certain grace period by which they can enter the naturalization process to become citizens. If they choose not to, then leave. We don't need new laws regarding naturalization and immigration, the process already in place weeds out criminals from other countries. But all of this is moot if the border is not effectively sealed.
In the city where I work, most of the crime is Mexican on Mexican. Much of it goes unreported because wets don't call the cops.
I have no problem with Mexican nationals legally immigrating here. I have three that work for me that are in the process, one is taking his test tomorrow and plans on taking the oath on Friday!!

 

[Phishphood]

Since we're throwing out "facts" and figures here, can anyone tell me what the recidivism rate is for executed felons? Seems like it's well worth the cost, whatever the cost is.

Can you tell me what the recidivism rate is for felons given life without parole

Many of them continue to commit crimes and victimize other prisoners, some of whom are in prison for non-violent crimes (most often drug crimes).

You can isolate dangerous inmates without putting them on death row

 

[MARK1970]

When you kill a man you take away all he ever was or will be. Seems a bit brutal just for B & E. Does the punishment really fit the crime?

You'd have to ask the burglars if that property was worth their life, they made that choice. When you violate a person's home you are accepting the risks that go along with that, including the fact that some people may choose to defend that property with deadly force. It's quite simple, really - if you don't think that property is worth dying for then you are advised not to violate that property.

A human life is only worth what that particular human is willing to do to preserve their own life. If you put your life in a stranger's house with the intent to commit a burglary then you obviously don't place much value on your own life, so why should anyone else place more value on your life than you place on your own life?

+1

 

[Odin]

I disgree. Laws, when well written and uniformly and strictly enforced, are an excellent way to deter crime. But laws are only a part of the equation. No matter how many criminals we lock up, if the judicial system continues to release those offenders quickly and without much or any punishment then we can't blame the laws. The entire system has to work together to deter crime, and our system is not working as well as it should.

So how does this not add up to an ineffective law system - it's all connected like you said. Problem is how do you make a law if it's not moral?

Our system is not what I would call "ineffective", but it is in serious need of a "back to basics" reform. Decades of liberalism and political correctness have reduced our system to a shell of what it was designed to be. It's all about appearances and appeasement these days. We have wrecked our own system and we're paying the price.

A major part of our problem is that our jails and prisons are overcrowded and offenders are released quickly, some who should never be released. These offenders immediately return to committing crimes.

This is not a factual statement. You cannot claim they all do, because they do not all return to crime. Those that do might for various reasons. Many might love crime, many might be fucktards, some even might feel unable to move on given the predjudices raised against them outside of prison (though why these exist is obvious and hardly the fault of those with the predjudice).

I'm not saying that all convicts reoffend, but a large number of them do. Our system is too easy to "work" if you're a career criminal, and crime does pay if you know how to work the system. Most people who are criminals do it because they have no sense of personal responsibility, which can be attributed to their parents (or lack thereof). They weren't raised to be productive members of society, and they quickly learn how to work the system so they have no real incentive to avoid criminal behavior. It's too late to go back and "re-parent" adults so all we can do with these criminals is try to rehabilitate them and lock them up if they refuse to be rehabilitated.

If the US decriminalized drugs and deported 100% of all illegal aliens our jails and prisons would be less than half full, leaving us the ability to incarcerate violent and predatory criminals properly. But I don't see this ever happening.

Decriminalise drugs? Are you serious? Some yeh sure, whatever, no worries, Weed, LSD, E - no biggie. Heroin and Meth man, seriously? LEGAL?

Of course. Why should my tax dollars go towards incarcerating people for self destructive behavior? Legalize, control and tax drugs just like alcohol and tobacco. prohibition didn't work then and it's not working now. Our system is busting at the seams with people whose only "crime" is self destructive drug use. Let's test Darwin's theory and allow these people to live free and do all the drugs they want.

The more freedom a nation enjoys the higher the crime rate will be. Freedom affords opportunity for the ambitious. Some are criminally ambitious.

I'm not sure what your point is? The US is the most free and therefore has the highest crime rate? Because I'd argue if your living in a perpetual crime zone your not really free, no matter what rights you have.

Or are you saying countries that are strincter but have less crime are less free (and therefore worse off) because their citizens can lead normal lives?

Or are you saying without any enforcement shit hits the fan, so its about finding the balance?

Of course it's about balance. But that balance should be to legislate that which impedes on the freedoms of others and permit everything else. The more freedom a people have the more room there is for the predatory side of some humans to manifest itself. In a strictly controlled society crime will be lower due to lower opportunity. In a communist or socialist society the low level criminal who avoids work has less motive to prey on others if the government is willing to provide for him.

 

[Odin]

Do you have a problem with me not being ok with people insulting kids with disabilities.

I mean I knew you were low, but really.

Obtain a sense of humor, it's a joke. And retarded (yes, that is a medical term) kids weren't the butt of the joke.

 

[Odin]

You can isolate dangerous inmates without putting them on death row

Sure you can, all it takes is tons and tons more of my tax dollars.

But first you have to divine which inmates are "dangerous" (which is impossible to do) and then you need to housing and staff to isolate them. It's just not practical to keep everyone in their own little world in prison, and unfortunately that means that crime will exist even in prison.

 

[cloudnine]

This is horrifying, and the guy should be sent to jail.

Yes, they were scumbag criminals. Yes, they stole a TV or whatever.

But when does a TV become worth more than a human life, no matter how bad the conduct of that human?

The 911 call says it all - he was just looking for an excuse to unload. The people didn't even come on his property to steal.

His duty and responsibility ended with calling 911.

 

[Plugmein]

Oh no, Iread what you wrote and though "If I had access to a gun I'd go shoot this mo fo". Luckily I don't

....And in the end, you always come back to threats of violence!

PACIFIST FAIL!!!

Now whose got terrible reading comprehension.

Irony and hypocrisy are rife in everything you write.

Let me apologize for the lack of reading comprehension, and analytical ability exhibited by the majority on this site. Also, I would like to state that America has taken a definite turn for the worst, becoming a much more violent, materialistic, hypocritical, nation of individuals. This is exhibited by the permutation of Jesus Christ as gun toting, money loving, unforgiving, god of the republican party! WWJD? "Turn, then shoot the crook in the back!" This is the new "turn the other cheek!"

 

[White_Van]

Let me apologize for the lack of reading comprehension, and analytical ability exhibited by the majority on this site. Also, I would like to state that America has taken a definite turn for the worst, becoming a much more violent, materialistic, hypocritical, nation of individuals. This is exhibited by the permutation of Jesus Christ as gun toting, money loving, unforgiving, god of the republican party! WWJD? "Turn, then shoot the crook in the back!" This is the new "turn the other cheek!"

Dude, what?

Who in the hell has claimed Jesus to be a gun toting etc. and so on? just because the religious right and those that support guns are on the same side of the political spectrum does not mean that Jesus has suddenly become the symbol of the NRA. You seriously need to think about making ridiculous statements about stuff like that, and if you really don't like it that much, get the hell out.

Though I suppose you shouldn't leave, because your "America" exists only in your brain, at least as far as I can see.

 

[70strathead]

Typo on the last one. Please, the USA has what, 12 million Illegal Immigrants in the states. You know what Illegals who committ crimes are? A slap in the face to everyone who's trying to come into the USA legally. I personally know some people who were deported because of laws put in place but our fucking retarded President.

A girl i used to date had a brother and sister who had their house raided at 4:00am, they were handcuffed and brought to the airport and thrown on a plane to South America. They have lived here since 1987, attended college, had good jobs, and most of their family lives here. They were in the long process of trying to get citizenship when some asshole ratted them out to the INS. They had to start all over in Peru with NOTHING.

The fact that good people like that get deported and scumbags like these 2 from this case are living here committing crimes makes me sick. Just thought you should know where I'm coming from.

dude Im so sick of these fucking greasy freeloading/stealing dirty mexican illegals coming over my backyard..if i had a gun, i will SHOOT those son of a bitches that have ripped me off more than once! fuck them.

Anthony

 

[thiswaythatway]

Typo on the last one. Please, the USA has what, 12 million Illegal Immigrants in the states. You know what Illegals who committ crimes are? A slap in the face to everyone who's trying to come into the USA legally. I personally know some people who were deported because of laws put in place but our fucking retarded President.

A girl i used to date had a brother and sister who had their house raided at 4:00am, they were handcuffed and brought to the airport and thrown on a plane to South America. They have lived here since 1987, attended college, had good jobs, and most of their family lives here. They were in the long process of trying to get citizenship when some asshole ratted them out to the INS. They had to start all over in Peru with NOTHING.

The fact that good people like that get deported and scumbags like these 2 from this case are living here committing crimes makes me sick. Just thought you should know where I'm coming from.

dude Im so sick of these fucking greasy freeloading/stealing dirty mexican illegals coming over my backyard..if i had a gun, i will SHOOT those son of a bitches that have ripped me off more than once! fuck them.

Anthony

Really? With all due respect that's a little harsh if you're serious. All I'm saying is that the particular 2 guys in this case had a history of crime and threatened the guy who shot them. And Texas law allows Mr. Horn to protect his neighbors property and his own.

I mean, i don't wish misery on Illegal Immigrants who are trying to earn a living here that are decent people. They probably value the USA more than plenty of people who already live here. Who's to blame more, an Illegal Immigrant who goes to work everyday with a landscaper or an American Citizen who sits his fat ass on his couch everyday collecting off the goverment without even trying to find work? I just hope our damm government can figure something out.

Shit, our economy is going to get soo bad that maybe they'll all leave for somewhere better.

 

[SeaDog]

"circular arguments" thats the pot calling the kettle black right there. I've heard you recycle the most arguments out of anyone I've encountered ever.

I've conceded plenty of points. Not in this thread, not to you, but certainly many. I can be beaten, it requires a different mindset to the one I see form you though.


Well right feild is full of Bush and Howard loving conservatives, so why would I ever go there?

Oh no, Iread what you wrote and though "If I had access to a gun I'd go shoot this mo fo". Luckily I don't!!

Why do you continue to try and argue your opinions? Let's review some key facts:

1. You don't live in the US - I think we're both happy about that.
2. You don't understand US laws.
3. You've obviously never been assaulted by someone with the intent to harm you or your family.
4. You haven't learned that no one cares about your opinion at all.

Our constitution provides us the right to domestic tranquility, and the right to protect ourselves, family and property. We essentially have the right to not be victimized by lawless people. Our country was also founded on personal responsibility (which I don't expect you to understand since you live in a socialist country).

The illegal alien/criminals made the decision to break the law. Mr. Horn made the decision to confront them under the protection of Texas law. At least one of the criminals moved toward him and both were killed. Horn was cleared of all charges by the legal system. The only break down of our system seems to be that the criminals were in the country to begin with. The criminals started the whole process with their decision to break the law - they are responsible for their own deaths. The only person who told Horn not to go out was the 911 operator (not the police as you consistantly claim), who has zero authority and is in no way qualified to dispense legal advise especially in light of the fact that Horn's actions were justified under Texas law.

I like a good debate as well as the next guy, but there is no debate here - just the facts as stated and people's differing opinions. Your twisting banter doesn't change the facts of the case and your opinion that we are all "murder lovers" or what not is humorous and stupid. I only hope that you never are threatened by someone with ill intent and have to make a self defense choice since in your country you are denied access to basic self defense tools. Maybe you could try wearing a helmet...

 

[Phishphood]

You can isolate dangerous inmates without putting them on death row

Sure you can, all it takes is tons and tons more of my tax dollars.

But first you have to divine which inmates are "dangerous" (which is impossible to do) and then you need to housing and staff to isolate them. It's just not practical to keep everyone in their own little world in prison, and unfortunately that means that crime will exist even in prison.

The same could be said for prisoners on death row, expensive legal process to separate them, separate facilities in already overcrowded prisons, separate guards to watch them...

 

[70strathead]

Typo on the last one. Please, the USA has what, 12 million Illegal Immigrants in the states. You know what Illegals who committ crimes are? A slap in the face to everyone who's trying to come into the USA legally. I personally know some people who were deported because of laws put in place but our fucking retarded President.

A girl i used to date had a brother and sister who had their house raided at 4:00am, they were handcuffed and brought to the airport and thrown on a plane to South America. They have lived here since 1987, attended college, had good jobs, and most of their family lives here. They were in the long process of trying to get citizenship when some asshole ratted them out to the INS. They had to start all over in Peru with NOTHING.

The fact that good people like that get deported and scumbags like these 2 from this case are living here committing crimes makes me sick. Just thought you should know where I'm coming from.

dude Im so sick of these fucking greasy freeloading/stealing dirty mexican illegals coming over my backyard..if i had a gun, i will SHOOT those son of a bitches that have ripped me off more than once! fuck them.

Anthony

Really? With all due respect that's a little harsh if you're serious. All I'm saying is that the particular 2 guys in this case had a history of crime and threatened the guy who shot them. And Texas law allows Mr. Horn to protect his neighbors property and his own.

I mean, i don't wish misery on Illegal Immigrants who are trying to earn a living here that are decent people. They probably value the USA more than plenty of people who already live here. Who's to blame more, an Illegal Immigrant who goes to work everyday with a landscaper or an American Citizen who sits his fat ass on his couch everyday collecting off the goverment without even trying to find work? I just hope our damm government can figure something out.

Shit, our economy is going to get soo bad that maybe they'll all leave for somewhere better.

I am serious and i don't normally chime in on these religious/political threads, but Illegal Immigration is a serious issue in our country and I aint sugar coating how i feel about it. I do respect what you've highlighted, but living so close the border, let me tell you that the majority of these mother fuckers want "stuff" and they get away with murder. I've had two ORIGINAL Strats stolen ( 73', 72') and other valuables from my home and two days into the investigation they apprehended the mexican Illegal Aliens, but my strats are gone along with my other valuables....sold and the police didnt do shit at the time. they're like fucking cockroaches, they keep coming back and we let them in and dont enforce enough. But things are getting a bit more better i must say on the crack downs. I could go on dude....all my life I've dealt with this scum of the earth. I've got nothing against Mexicans, just illegals who break the law and freeload. Then there was the big wildfire disasters out here last year where those scumbags were taking truck loads of supplies and stealing them then selling them, while thousands of "American tax paying Citizens" were evacuated with limited resources/supplies to live staying at Qualcomm stadium. But let me correct myself, I actually wouldnt just shoot them, I would stun them and then kick the living shit out them...

good night

A

 

[Odin]

This is horrifying, and the guy should be sent to jail.

I agree, although probably for different reasons.

Yes, they were scumbag criminals. Yes, they stole a TV or whatever.

But when does a TV become worth more than a human life, no matter how bad the conduct of that human?

I don't know, why don't you ask the people who chose to risk their life stealing other people's property exactly when they decided that other people's property was worth their human lives? After all, it was their decisions that led to their deaths, and they were aware that they were committing a crime.

The 911 call says it all - he was just looking for an excuse to unload. The people didn't even come on his property to steal.

It appears that they did not initially enter his property to commit a crime, although we can't know for certain. What is certain is that when confronted they chose to enter his property. At that point, the only relevant issue is whether or not the homeowner felt threatened, and due to the felons being killed we only know what the homeowner tells us - he says he felt threatened.

His duty and responsibility ended with calling 911.

Actually, his "legal" resposnibility was nil - he didn't have any duty to call 911. His moral responsibility was guided by his own beliefs, which apparently led him to call 911 and confront the felons in an attempt to stop their escape with his neighbor's property. Regardless, once he felt threatened by felons trespassing on his property he was within his legal right to use whatever force he felt was necessary to defend himself. Morally, his actions will offend some and delight others.

Personally, the thing about this case that troubles me is not that the homeowner killed 2 felons. It is the homeowner's statements to the 911 operator which seemed to indicate that he was intent on using his weapon before he even left the house. I can't judge his actions because I wasn't in his position, and he may have made statements in the heat of the moment that were a result of stress and adrenaline more than his actual intent, but I didn't like the sound of that call at all.

Regardless, even if he went outside with the intent on executing the felons in an act of vigilante justice, if the situation developed into one where he felt threatened by those felons then his actions would then be justified, even if he needlessly placed himself in the situation.

Entirely too much attention has been given to this case. Each year in this country thousands of innocent law abiding citizens are assaulted, stabbed, robbed, shot, raped, and killed by criminals and we rarely see much discussion about their plight. Many people appear to have more sympathy for the felons than the innocent citizens. This case was a less than ideal and questionable case of self defense, but in the end it ended with no innocent people harmed.

 

[Plugmein]

Let me apologize for the lack of reading comprehension, and analytical ability exhibited by the majority on this site. Also, I would like to state that America has taken a definite turn for the worst, becoming a much more violent, materialistic, hypocritical, nation of individuals. This is exhibited by the permutation of Jesus Christ as gun toting, money loving, unforgiving, god of the republican party! WWJD? "Turn, then shoot the crook in the back!" This is the new "turn the other cheek!"

Dude, what?

Who in the hell has claimed Jesus to be a gun toting etc. and so on? just because the religious right and those that support guns are on the same side of the political spectrum does not mean that Jesus has suddenly become the symbol of the NRA. You seriously need to think about making ridiculous statements about stuff like that, and if you really don't like it that much, get the hell out.

Though I suppose you shouldn't leave, because your "America" exists only in your brain, at least as far as I can see.

When was the last time you attended a church? In my community there are two church's that have allowed Republican's to hold meetings or organize discussions on church property. That is a violation of U.S. rules governing their tax exempt status. As a member of a church I am amazed at the number of times our pastor and select members have voiced their republican propaganda to the sleepy and ignorant congregation. I am not a follower of the new Republican Christ! Is this clear enough for your infantile, not yet formed brain? By the way.
My family has shed enough blood for this country, so you get the fuck out!

 

[theNoseBleedKid]

Typo on the last one. Please, the USA has what, 12 million Illegal Immigrants in the states. You know what Illegals who committ crimes are? A slap in the face to everyone who's trying to come into the USA legally. I personally know some people who were deported because of laws put in place but our fucking retarded President.

I'd agree they certainly are. But looking where many come from, it's really hard to blame them for wanting to jump the que as it were. New immigration laws here are a joke, I'm not sure of the ones in America. Point it, I know if the positions were reversed I'd be trying to get into Australia or America ASAP and the law would take a back seat.

A girl i used to date had a brother and sister who had their house raided at 4:00am, they were handcuffed and brought to the airport and thrown on a plane to South America. They have lived here since 1987, attended college, had good jobs, and most of their family lives here. They were in the long process of trying to get citizenship when some asshole ratted them out to the INS. They had to start all over in Peru with NOTHING.

The fact that good people like that get deported and scumbags like these 2 from this case are living here committing crimes makes me sick. Just thought you should know where I'm coming from.

I'd agree with you, I wouldn't agree that having them shot by a vigilante does anything for anyone in regards to immigration at all though.

 

[theNoseBleedKid]

Danyeo, I totally agree. I think the #1 priority should be sealing the border. Then we can decide what to do with who is already here.
I think first off, everyone gets registered. Then all should be given a certain grace period by which they can enter the naturalization process to become citizens. If they choose not to, then leave. We don't need new laws regarding naturalization and immigration, the process already in place weeds out criminals from other countries. But all of this is moot if the border is not effectively sealed.
In the city where I work, most of the crime is Mexican on Mexican. Much of it goes unreported because wets don't call the cops.
I have no problem with Mexican nationals legally immigrating here. I have three that work for me that are in the process, one is taking his test tomorrow and plans on taking the oath on Friday!!

Don't know about you, but "sealing the border" seems a very tricky task over there. Would take a lot of effort.

 

[theNoseBleedKid]

Our system is not what I would call "ineffective", but it is in serious need of a "back to basics" reform. Decades of liberalism and political correctness have reduced our system to a shell of what it was designed to be. It's all about appearances and appeasement these days. We have wrecked our own system and we're paying the price.

I guess when your talking about a wrecked system that is a shell it just comes across as ineffective to me ?

I'm not saying that all convicts reoffend, but a large number of them do. Our system is too easy to "work" if you're a career criminal, and crime does pay if you know how to work the system. Most people who are criminals do it because they have no sense of personal responsibility, which can be attributed to their parents (or lack thereof). They weren't raised to be productive members of society, and they quickly learn how to work the system so they have no real incentive to avoid criminal behavior. It's too late to go back and "re-parent" adults so all we can do with these criminals is try to rehabilitate them and lock them up if they refuse to be rehabilitated.

I think to say parents are the be all and end all of criminals is a little silly. Sure they play a definite role, don't get me wrong. But generalisations really don't work very well, specifically when dealing with many different people. Having worked with some criminals (albeit no molsters or rapists) many don't need a re adulting as such, but legitimately another chance. That being said I can accept those people would be a minorty, though i couldn't tell you for sure.

Of course. Why should my tax dollars go towards incarcerating people for self destructive behavior? Legalize, control and tax drugs just like alcohol and tobacco. prohibition didn't work then and it's not working now. Our system is busting at the seams with people whose only "crime" is self destructive drug use. Let's test Darwin's theory and allow these people to live free and do all the drugs they want.

Because otherwise you'll be taxed more to pay for health care to more drug addicts and injuries caused by them etc. Again your over sensationalising things. Drugs are hardly the root problem nor is the system being owned by noobs on crack. If thats your point you NEED to provide statistics to support it. If drugs are such a problem there shouldn't be much trouble finding them.

Of course it's about balance. But that balance should be to legislate that which impedes on the freedoms of others and permit everything else. The more freedom a people have the more room there is for the predatory side of some humans to manifest itself. In a strictly controlled society crime will be lower due to lower opportunity. In a communist or socialist society the low level criminal who avoids work has less motive to prey on others if the government is willing to provide for him.

Well see heres the thing. In a large country with many public sectors almost everything impacts on one another, which makes it impossible to legislate using that mantra. Well, legislate properly. FWIW communist societies often ahve the most instuitionalised crime scenes, Ruffian Mafia, Chinese Triads, Vietnamese Traids. So that argument is kind of, you know, flawed on every level.