wet/dry/wet rig phasing issues

[jimmy274]

I've recently started using w/d/w rig consisted of Cameron CCV going dry through Bogner 4x12 with H30's and Rocktron Intellifex going through Rocktron Velocity 300 1U powering 2 Bogner 212 cb cabs.

We've recorded the show few nights ago and when I played it back, the tone of the guitar was bright and kind of thin. I remember that in the venue it sounded great. I don't have a multitrack recording so I cannot experiment with phase switching, but I strongly believe this is the problem.

I use a little bit of dry tone in wet cabs. Also I've noticed that when I switch in the Hush in Intellifex, the bottom end literally jumps out louder from the whole rig. Probably because of the small processor latency, sounds also like a phasing issue.

I remember that Brian May once stated that his tone on Queen Live at Wembley Stadium '86 was not right because the amps were out of phase.

I guess there are lots of you with more experience micing the w/d/w rigs. Is this common?

 

[Tone Monster]

My (weak) understanding is amps can either be in phase or out 180 degrees only. No in between like microphones can be. If so, you just need 1 of the speaker cables to have ONE of its connections polarity reversed. This is easy and cheap.

 

[jimmy274]

My (weak) understanding is amps can either be in phase or out 180 degrees only. No in between like microphones can be. If so, you just need 1 of the speaker cables to have ONE of its connections polarity reversed. This is easy and cheap.

Yes, I thought of that already, but in person my rig sounds fantastic, there's nothing suspicious about it. The recording was strange sounding, also few guitar players told me that the guitar tone coming from the PA that night sounded too mellow and overly bright. There is a clip on youtube recorded with iPhone and it sounds just fine comparing to what I have been experiencing on stage.


Here it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC-378AmkoM

 

[Anonymous]

My (weak) understanding is amps can either be in phase or out 180 degrees only. No in between like microphones can be. If so, you just need 1 of the speaker cables to have ONE of its connections polarity reversed. This is easy and cheap.

In a W/D/W setup like this no way you should have to do what you are suggesting...

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

I've recently started using w/d/w rig consisted of Cameron CCV going dry through Bogner 4x12 with H30's and Rocktron Intellifex going through Rocktron Velocity 300 1U powering 2 Bogner 212 cb cabs.

We've recorded the show few nights ago and when I played it back, the tone of the guitar was bright and kind of thin. I remember that in the venue it sounded great. I don't have a multitrack recording so I cannot experiment with phase switching, but I strongly believe this is the problem.

I use a little bit of dry tone in wet cabs. Also I've noticed that when I switch in the Hush in Intellifex, the bottom end literally jumps out louder from the whole rig. Probably because of the small processor latency, sounds also like a phasing issue.

I remember that Brian May once stated that his tone on Queen Live at Wembley Stadium '86 was not right because the amps were out of phase.

I guess there are lots of you with more experience micing the w/d/w rigs. Is this common?

I think Brian May is talking about separate amps that are both taking guitar as input, not a W/D/W (even with some dry in the wet cabs - that is how I run my W/D/W as well). Sounds like a problem with mic phasing to me - that explains why you liked the sound on stage and yet the guys listening to the PA did not and also why the recording sounds bad to you... Capturing a W/D/W setup through PA or recorded requires some work by the sound people to get the mics setup properly...

Steve

 

[sbeirnes]

Get a Klops speaker system. They take care of any phasing issues. ;-)

 

[Tone Monster]

My (weak) understanding is amps can either be in phase or out 180 degrees only. No in between like microphones can be. If so, you just need 1 of the speaker cables to have ONE of its connections polarity reversed. This is easy and cheap.

In a W/D/W setup like this no way you should have to do what you are suggesting...

Steve

Curious as to why not? Couldn't the multiple power sections be out of phase?

 

[Anonymous]

My (weak) understanding is amps can either be in phase or out 180 degrees only. No in between like microphones can be. If so, you just need 1 of the speaker cables to have ONE of its connections polarity reversed. This is easy and cheap.

In a W/D/W setup like this no way you should have to do what you are suggesting...

Steve

Curious as to why not? Couldn't the multiple power sections be out of phase?

When you are running stereo effects with a stereo power amp against a dry cab straight from the amp, I don't see how that would happen.

Steve

 

[Tone Monster]

The CCV power section has no chance of being out of phase with the rocktron?

 

[RACKSYSTEMS]

No it is possible. I thing to address is the hush. Don't use it. It will make you go thru the a/d d/a conversion with the rocktron. If it's not on the unit has a anolog dry path. Now it is possible that the power amp flips the phase. You should be able to tell. Set the effect mix to all dry and listen to all 3 cabs. Bring the power amp up and down in volume and see if the sound gets thin if not its in phase and your good.

 

[Tone Monster]

No it is possible. I thing to address is the hush. Don't use it. It will make you go thru the a/d d/a conversion with the rocktron. If it's not on the unit has a anolog dry path. Now it is possible that the power amp flips the phase. You should be able to tell. Set the effect mix to all dry and listen to all 3 cabs. Bring the power amp up and down in volume and see if the sound gets thin if not its in phase and your good.

Cool. I thought I was going insane!

 

[Anonymous]

The CCV power section has no chance of being out of phase with the rocktron?

If that were the case, you would hear it standing right in front of it. The OP is saying that the rig sounds fine standing right in front of it. That is why I am saying it is a mic issue. The rig sounds bad through the PA and recorded - that says it is a mic problem to me.

I've been running W/D/W rigs for a long time with a bit of dry in the wet cabs and I've never heard a phasing problem. The dry signal across all three cabs has already been processed by the CCV and then goes into effects and the Rocktron - should be fine...

Steve

 

[Anonymous]

No it is possible. I thing to address is the hush. Don't use it. It will make you go thru the a/d d/a conversion with the rocktron. If it's not on the unit has a anolog dry path. Now it is possible that the power amp flips the phase. You should be able to tell. Set the effect mix to all dry and listen to all 3 cabs. Bring the power amp up and down in volume and see if the sound gets thin if not its in phase and your good.

Sure, but the rig sounds fine when he's standing in front of it. Sounds like a mic problem to me. It only sounds bad through the PA and recorded. Seems like a mic problem to me...

Steve

 

[Tone Monster]

No it is possible. I thing to address is the hush. Don't use it. It will make you go thru the a/d d/a conversion with the rocktron. If it's not on the unit has a anolog dry path. Now it is possible that the power amp flips the phase. You should be able to tell. Set the effect mix to all dry and listen to all 3 cabs. Bring the power amp up and down in volume and see if the sound gets thin if not its in phase and your good.

Sure, but the rig sounds fine when he's standing in front of it. Sounds like a mic problem to me. It only sounds bad through the PA and recorded. Seems like a mic problem to me...

Steve

I agree this is most likely the problem

 

[Anonymous]

No it is possible. I thing to address is the hush. Don't use it. It will make you go thru the a/d d/a conversion with the rocktron. If it's not on the unit has a anolog dry path. Now it is possible that the power amp flips the phase. You should be able to tell. Set the effect mix to all dry and listen to all 3 cabs. Bring the power amp up and down in volume and see if the sound gets thin if not its in phase and your good.

Sure, but the rig sounds fine when he's standing in front of it. Sounds like a mic problem to me. It only sounds bad through the PA and recorded. Seems like a mic problem to me...

Steve

I agree this is most likely the problem

Yeah, and I was incorrect - because of the dry sound in his wet cabs, there could be phasing issues - I've just never experienced that myself, but it could happen. If he was running 100% wet in the L/R cabs with time-based effects, there shouldn't be any phasing issues.

Steve

 

[steve_k]

i think it is in the delay time between the dry/wet cabs at the mic level causing what you think is an amp phase issue. radial make a little box to bring everything back right in the time domain. also, check all your cabs to see that they are all in phase. it won't be the amp though. phasing issues start at the preamp level. with only one preamp driving the wet side, this isn't your problem.

 

[jimmy274]

Thanks a lot guys. Taking it to a studio next week for recording a promo. I'll see what happens. It definitely sounds in phase with Rocktron bypassed, I mean with dry signal only coming out of all cabs. It has to be a mic thing....

 

[Greazygeo]

I would make sure all the individual speakers are hooked up correctly and in phase. They may have mic'd one speaker that is out of phase.

Use the 9 volt battery test to rule that out.