What is a Buffer good for?

[droptrd]

so say i want to run my rig as follows:
guitar -> y box -> mark iii, titan
fx send -> reverb, decimator -> return

should i add a buffer?

Are the decimators TB?

 

[D-Rock]

so say i want to run my rig as follows:
guitar -> y box -> mark iii, titan
fx send -> reverb, decimator -> return

should i add a buffer?

Are the decimators TB?

No, I tested mine the other day.

 

[blackba]

I try to play buffered effects in my pedal chain, I like one early and one late typically. Here are some things I have found:

1. I like to have a buffer after my SI fuzz face and after my wah, but as early in the chain as possible
2. All buffers/bypass on pedals are not created equal. Even the buffers in Boss pedals can vary depending on the model. I really like the buffer in my Korg DT-10 tuner and its easy to place in the chain too.
3. I generally don't notice as much of a difference with buffers or TB if I put the effects in the loop. For example, I had a Line 6 Verbzilla that I was noticing made my tone sound dull before the amp. However, I could hardly notice this when I put it in the loop.
4. MXR effects in general are known for not having the best bypass, usually one in the chain is okay, but with more than 1 I can start to notice a change in tone
5. Wah pedals should be true bypass, they are generally tone suckers (original crybaby anyone)

 

[Krallum]

Absolutely nothing SAYITAGAINNOW

 

[brain21]

Ummmm, OK. Lets try again.

I have 2 pedals (lets keep it at that). 1 is a fuzz, and the other is a Dr. Distorto pedal.

The Dr. Distorto pedal is DEFINITELY buffered. Not only does Line6 state this, you can tell by using it in front of the fuzz, as opposed to using an unbuffered pedal, even in "bypassed mode." It's not a question of if it has a buffer. It does.

The Dr. Distorto, for the purposes that I am using it for, sounds WAY better when placed BEFORE dirt pedals rather than after them. This applies to fuzz, overdrive, etc. Therefore, this is the way that I would like to use it. All of my OTHER buffered pedals (sorry, should have made that clearer in my previous post(s) ) are currently placed after the Fuzz. For now... I just have to settle for the fact that if I want to use my harmonizers I need to use the fuzz emulation in my AxeFx rather than my actual fuzz pedal (because that places the fuzz AFTER the harmonizer, which is buffered, and since THAT fuzz is modeled in the AxeFx I don't have to worry about buffer issues). Not optimal, but doable.

Simply putting it in a bypass looper does NOT solve the problem. It ONLY solves the problem so long as I don't use the Dr Distorto. If I am using the Fuzz and need to bring the Dr Distorto into the loop, it causes issues and sputtering and really bad noises. A bypass loop does NOT help my situation. When the fuzz is in use and the Dr Distorto is not, a loop can help, but the entire purpose of a pedal is to actually use it once in a while. On those occasions that I want to use it, esp. in conjunction with the Fuzz, I have to bring it back into the signal chain, and the sputtering issues come immedately into play. A Bypass looper simply does not help in this situation, and is not meant to.

Regardless of whether you think the buffer is "good" or "bad" or "lame" or whatever, it does not matter. What matters is that when it interacts with my fuzz pedal, it sounds like the fuzz pedal is on the fritz or having electrical shorts. Of course its not, its just the interaction of the Low-Z input into the fuzz.

So, once again, does anyone make something that can "unbuffer" or convert a low-Z signal back into a pickup-like Hi-Z signal so by placing it inbetween, I can place a buffered pedal BEFORE my fuzz, if I want to??? Again, Ive seen online "Pickup Simulator" schematics to solve this very problem. I just would like to know if someone makes one of these commercially.

Thanks again,

Brain21

 

[Dallas Marlow]

Ummmm, OK. Lets try again.

I have 2 pedals (lets keep it at that). 1 is a fuzz, and the other is a Dr. Distorto pedal.

The Dr. Distorto pedal is DEFINITELY buffered. Not only does Line6 state this, you can tell by using it in front of the fuzz, as opposed to using an unbuffered pedal, even in "bypassed mode." It's not a question of if it has a buffer. It does.

The Dr. Distorto, for the purposes that I am using it for, sounds WAY better when placed BEFORE dirt pedals rather than after them. This applies to fuzz, overdrive, etc. Therefore, this is the way that I would like to use it. All of my OTHER buffered pedals (sorry, should have made that clearer in my previous post(s) ) are currently placed after the Fuzz. For now... I just have to settle for the fact that if I want to use my harmonizers I need to use the fuzz emulation in my AxeFx rather than my actual fuzz pedal (because that places the fuzz AFTER the harmonizer, which is buffered, and since THAT fuzz is modeled in the AxeFx I don't have to worry about buffer issues). Not optimal, but doable.

Simply putting it in a bypass looper does NOT solve the problem. It ONLY solves the problem so long as I don't use the Dr Distorto. If I am using the Fuzz and need to bring the Dr Distorto into the loop, it causes issues and sputtering and really bad noises. A bypass loop does NOT help my situation. When the fuzz is in use and the Dr Distorto is not, a loop can help, but the entire purpose of a pedal is to actually use it once in a while. On those occasions that I want to use it, esp. in conjunction with the Fuzz, I have to bring it back into the signal chain, and the sputtering issues come immedately into play. A Bypass looper simply does not help in this situation, and is not meant to.

Regardless of whether you think the buffer is "good" or "bad" or "lame" or whatever, it does not matter. What matters is that when it interacts with my fuzz pedal, it sounds like the fuzz pedal is on the fritz or having electrical shorts. Of course its not, its just the interaction of the Low-Z input into the fuzz.

So, once again, does anyone make something that can "unbuffer" or convert a low-Z signal back into a pickup-like Hi-Z signal so by placing it inbetween, I can place a buffered pedal BEFORE my fuzz, if I want to??? Again, Ive seen online "Pickup Simulator" schematics to solve this very problem. I just would like to know if someone makes one of these commercially.

Thanks again,

Brain21

Brain,

I'm unaware of any products like this.. but that doesn't mean they don't exist, I'm sure if you called Bob Bradshaw @ CAE and asked he could come up with something if he doesn't already have the solution.

I just don't have a solution for you man

Dallas

 

[Sixtonoize]

Here's a pretty simple schematic to do exactly what you're looking for:

Here's the discussion:
http://www.muzique.com/lab/pickups.htm

 

[brain21]

Here's a pretty simple schematic to do exactly what you're looking for:

Here's the discussion:
http://www.muzique.com/lab/pickups.htm

Yeah, thanks for the link. Thats the pickup simulator that I had referred to seeing in the past. I know NOTHING about electronics (I wish I did), so I suppose I need to find someone to build this for me. At least I can print out that page and give it to whoever does the buildng! I'm just surprised that no one already actually makes one.

 

[petejt]

I greatly disagree with glpg80, all though respectfully.

Whether it's a matter of taste, ears, or opinions, it is my personal thoughts that a buffer is damn near a necessity.

I don't run a very long cable run in the front of my amps, it's a 20ft then pedals, then a 12 foot to the amp, this isn't HUGE, but there is 100% definite signal loss, especially on the high end, and the feel changes as well.

Even with all true bypass pedals, IMO it is greatly beneficial to have a buffer as the first thing on your pedal board. It basically greatly increases the signal strength of your guitar (by changing the impedance), but don't confuse this with boosting the output of your guitar. I've tested my rig with and with out the buffer and there is a very noticeable difference with out it, with the buffer quite honestly it sounds near identical to a 12 foot cable directly into the amp, there is a VERY VERY slight change, in the tone, if anything it makes it sound a little warmer... but with out it... it's just nasty.

And just to make everyone whos religious about TBP jump off the ledge, I actually use a boss pedal, in bypass as my buffer, I never actually use the effect... but here's the kicker, I have 3 boss pedals and they all sound different when being used as a bypass buffer. The super chorus is by far the best most neutral and warm sounding one, the TU2 sounded harsh, the compressor seemed to compress even when it was off as well... so neither of those were an option.

People really don't understand buffers, and don't realize they actually are a great thing when used properly. You don't want 10 of them in a row or anything, but IMHO they are truly necessary to retain a good signal from your guitar when running realistic cable lengths.

thats alot of opinions. and i dont disagree with any of them either

i will say that wireless systems get extremely expensive on this topic, dealing with modulation of the original AC in sidebands and using buffers/RF amplifiers to grab the original tone back again from the carrier.

anyone who uses the volume knob on a guitar or goes for a crunch type of tone will not like the "boost" of a bipolar junction transistor. they do not have infinite headroom and are highly limited by the 9V battery or power supply and its current supply, as well as the transistor type itself. my opinion: it will do nothing but hinder, not help, the original AC from your guitar pickup.

the 1M resistor going to ground in an amplifier is made to be in parallel with the impedance load of whatever you have out front, buffers are messing with this purposely imposed design.

if you are going for high gain and do not care about guitar pickup dynamics - then a buffer will not matter in the signal chain. if picking hard and soft or the type of pick does not matter, a buffer will not matter. if you prefer a wireless over a cable setup, a buffer will not matter. if you cant tell the difference in the type of picking angle you use, a buffer wont matter. if you cant tell the difference in the capacitance differences in cable length, a buffer will not matter. there are so many more variables that are going to ALL be opinionated.

i ran 3 pedals into a low gain/crunch type metroamp, the buffer from a boss flanger, after removing the flanger from the signal chain the tonal difference was night and day - simillar to a string change. a buffer in front of everything still acts as the weakest link.

back in the 80's, charvel used buffers and signal boosting to boost the AC signal in the guitars from the pickup and also add mid-shifting or mid boosting circuitry as well. there is a reason they are not used in every guitar today.

to the OP - in my opinion: buffers should be used for tone re-production, not tone production.

Well in that case, I definitely don't want to use a buffer. I am no expert when it comes to playing the guitar, not even a semi-professional, but I can hear the difference in my picking angles, and care a lot about guitar pickup dynamics, even when I play high gain stuff.

I'm gonna use the Feed Thru rather than the guitar out (buffered) socket on my GCX switcher from now on.

 

[petejt]

dammit now I am getting confused.................

 

[Sixtonoize]

Well in that case, I definitely don't want to use a buffer. I am no expert when it comes to playing the guitar, not even a semi-professional, but I can hear the difference in my picking angles, and care a lot about guitar pickup dynamics, even when I play high gain stuff.

I'm gonna use the Feed Thru rather than the guitar out (buffered) socket on my GCX switcher from now on.

But if you can hear the differences in your picking WITH a buffer, what do you hope to gain by removing it?

 

[petejt]

Well in that case, I definitely don't want to use a buffer. I am no expert when it comes to playing the guitar, not even a semi-professional, but I can hear the difference in my picking angles, and care a lot about guitar pickup dynamics, even when I play high gain stuff.

I'm gonna use the Feed Thru rather than the guitar out (buffered) socket on my GCX switcher from now on.

But if you can hear the differences in your picking WITH a buffer, what do you hope to gain by removing it?

Well I'm not using any buffer at the moment. I have a GCX switcher that I want to use in front of my amp to loop-switch my pedals, and currently trying to decide whether to use the feed thru or guitar output socket.

Plugging straight into the amp, or just two pedals in front- I can hear the difference in picking angles etc.

I'm getting muddled by whether a buffer will preserve my signal or just muck it up. I thought I had it clear but after reading through the whole thread it's now a mess in my head.

 

[Sixtonoize]

Don't worry about all of the bullshit.

Try it out both ways. One of the two ways will sound better.
Use that way and don't think about it and harder than that.

In the end, the only thing that really matters is what sounds the best.

 

[petejt]

Don't worry about all of the bullshit.

Try it out both ways. One of the two ways will sound better.
Use that way and don't think about it and harder than that.

In the end, the only thing that really matters is what sounds the best.

Thanks mate .

I think I procrastinate too much about this stuff. I meant to come online today to research MIDI switchers and discuss some options, and now I gone waaaay off tangent...













{edit:

I guess though that it's balanced out by playing my (unplugged) electric guitar at the computer between posting?......

 

[herbertmark5]

try your sound with a buffer and without.whatever sounds better go with it, thats what you need to do. there is no right or wrong way

 

[Sixtonoize]

You really like that pic, don't you?

...




I mean...like, a nearly fetishistic amount.

 

[Giga]

I really think glpg's statement is harsh and far too broad. Apparently for some reason he had a bad experience with a buffer and has decided that it can never be any good. Not true I think...

As others have said: do what sounds best to your ears.

Giga


e

Well in that case, I definitely don't want to use a buffer. I am no expert when it comes to playing the guitar, not even a semi-professional, but I can hear the difference in my picking angles, and care a lot about guitar pickup dynamics, even when I play high gain stuff.

I'm gonna use the Feed Thru rather than the guitar out (buffered) socket on my GCX switcher from now on.

But if you can hear the differences in your picking WITH a buffer, what do you hope to gain by removing it?

Well I'm not using any buffer at the moment. I have a GCX switcher that I want to use in front of my amp to loop-switch my pedals, and currently trying to decide whether to use the feed thru or guitar output socket.

Plugging straight into the amp, or just two pedals in front- I can hear the difference in picking angles etc.

I'm getting muddled by whether a buffer will preserve my signal or just muck it up. I thought I had it clear but after reading through the whole thread it's now a mess in my head.

 

[D-Rock]

You really like that pic, don't you?

...




I mean...like, a nearly fetishistic amount.

He needs to add it to his signature, then he doesn't need to attach it all the time.

 

[TP Parter]

I greatly disagree with glpg80, all though respectfully.

Whether it's a matter of taste, ears, or opinions, it is my personal thoughts that a buffer is damn near a necessity.

I don't run a very long cable run in the front of my amps, it's a 20ft then pedals, then a 12 foot to the amp, this isn't HUGE, but there is 100% definite signal loss, especially on the high end, and the feel changes as well.

Even with all true bypass pedals, IMO it is greatly beneficial to have a buffer as the first thing on your pedal board. It basically greatly increases the signal strength of your guitar (by changing the impedance), but don't confuse this with boosting the output of your guitar. I've tested my rig with and with out the buffer and there is a very noticeable difference with out it, with the buffer quite honestly it sounds near identical to a 12 foot cable directly into the amp, there is a VERY VERY slight change, in the tone, if anything it makes it sound a little warmer... but with out it... it's just nasty.

And just to make everyone whos religious about TBP jump off the ledge, I actually use a boss pedal, in bypass as my buffer, I never actually use the effect... but here's the kicker, I have 3 boss pedals and they all sound different when being used as a bypass buffer. The super chorus is by far the best most neutral and warm sounding one, the TU2 sounded harsh, the compressor seemed to compress even when it was off as well... so neither of those were an option.

People really don't understand buffers, and don't realize they actually are a great thing when used properly. You don't want 10 of them in a row or anything, but IMHO they are truly necessary to retain a good signal from your guitar when running realistic cable lengths.

This is pretty much my experience. I use a 15' cable for my first run, sorry, but 10 ft is too annoyingly short. My first pedal is my SansAmp (buffered), and I then run through 2 sometimes 3 pedals up front; a vintage Systech Parametric EQ + Distortion used as a overdrive/volume boost, sometimes a Dano Chili Dog Octave (shitty bypass IMO), and my Crybaby 535. Then a 10 ft after that to the amp. I've got all Horizon and planet waves cables, except the 15 ft which is a Samson. If I don't use the buffer it neuters the tone for sure, taking away edge and sparkle. I have some Canare, I just need to man up and solder it up with the Neutrik and Switchcraft plugs I have.

I have two pedals in the loop, both with great bypasses as far sound quality, though the phaser (3ms Phaseur Fleur) makes a pop when switching on after it's been bypassed for a while. The Gig FX Chopper is great, and I get no noise on switching. Being a Tremoverb I have send level and return controls, and I set it for unity gain, and 100% mix.

 

[moltenmetalburn]

This is a simple answer yet so many complicated responses.


A buffer is used to prevent loading of the guitar pickups signal.

It converts the high impedance guitar signal to low impedance.

Low impedance is a stronger signal that has no problems dealing with the capacitance of the cable runs.

it is this capacitance that robs your signal of highs.

a good buffer will change the signal as little as possible frequency-wise.

a bad buffer will add distortion, cut bass, smear the high end.

The BOSS pedals have a built in buffer. this buffer sounds like crap compared to "real" buffers.

active pickups dont need an additional buffer.

wireless systems dont need an additional buffer.


as always; let your ear decide which sounds best to you.