Bugera Amplifiers

[rlord1974]

You couldnt find two white guys fighting? Why does it always have to be white and black with you?

It doesn't. It has to be black and white.

 

[1meanplexi]

Well.....I have to say, love'em or hate'em, this guy has two stones in his sack for coming on and not taking the proverbial fuck it, what are a few opinions/facts going to matter in the big picture. My statement here is not in his defense. Just an appreciation.

Now, let's see if we can get Fortin to mod one of these fuckers ! Peace!

 

[rlord1974]

Now, let's see if we can get Fortin to mod one of these fuckers

It would be a re-build.

 

[shredi knight]

 

[Arby911]

While I think it's commendable that a few Bugera reps. have come here to discuss their products, it seems to me it's their job to show the error (if any) in the public perception. Tis a strange company indeed that defends their product by telling customers to 'prove it'....

Ante up boys, show us why the perception is wrong. Not marketing hype please just facts and schematics.

If you make claims or accusations, you should be prepared to back them up.

I'm guessing you didn't major in sales or marketing?

I understand your point but it's inapplicable in corporate to consumer relationships.

It's applicable to anything. The things that were asked to be proved were specific claims made by someone without any backup other than I say so/my friend said so. You can't just pop of with whatever half baked thing pops in your head and then demand that it's someone else's responsibility to "show why it's wrong."

Not sure what I majored in has anything to do with it. I like to think I did a little better than sales/marketing, but I'm sure many might argue with that...

Sorry, but confrontational public dialog with customers and potential customers is never a good idea for for any company. You might recall the infamous iPhone 4 antenna issue, and Steve Jobs "Just avoid holding it in that way" response? I've seen estimates that that response cost Apple tens of millions in lost revenue...and that was significantly less 'forward' than what we've seen here.

Will the comments here cost Bugera that kind of coin, even in relation to their size v. Apple? Probably not, but it won't help sales.

And if it won't help sales, what's the point?

 

[Joe Sanborn]

Dear 1meanplexi,

That’s actually a great idea.

Perhaps some of you guys would like to work with us to mod one of our amps. We’re game.

Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

 

[Joe Sanborn]

Dear 311splawndude,

Thank you for your comments.

Allow me to offer a different view.

If you do a Google search query about the fragility of tubes, you will find the following article:
http://voices.yahoo.com/when-replace-va ... tml?cat=33

“A vacuum tube's construction is very similar to an incandescent light bulb, consisting of a glass envelope from which all of the air has been extracted. Inside this vacuum are heat-emitting elements which will eventually burn out. Likewise, vacuum tubes are fragile, too, and are highly vulnerable to the physical impacts of the road and the vibrations of high-volume playing.”

Every tube manufacturer and retailer will tell you, that tube amps have a higher failure rate by nature than solid state amps; exactly for the reasons above.

You stated the Thomann failure rates, which are actually great examples. You stated:

“I don't remember what month this was and Thomann doesn't post failure rates anymore IIRC but here is a sample from not too long ago. 2.14% is higher than 1.0%

Peavey: 1.47% failure rate
Bugera: 2.14% failure rate
Marshall: .62% failure rate
Fender: .33% failure rate

I realize that in the grand scheme of things that is probably not a big deal."

First of all we never stated that BUGERA has a failure rate of 1% and if you read my earlier post, it refers to as an example.

More important you have to carefully read those Thomann numbers above. These numbers relate to sold items versus subsequent defective returns.

When interpreting those numbers, one has to first look at the nature of the products a company is selling. If you are in the guitar strings and picks business only, you will likely see a 0% failure rate, as no customer would return consumables.

In the case of BUGERA, we almost exclusively make Tube Amps and since those products have a higher failure rate by nature, naturally the failure rate is higher than companies who sell mixed products. To be perfectly accurate, one would have to look at a comparisons between tube amp manufacturers only, to get a more accurate picture.

To put this in perspective, BEHRINGER’s indicated failure rate was at 0.51% before Thomann switched off the system. Compared to other similar companies, I believe at the time only three Japanese companies had lower rates.

If you would combine the failure rate of BUGERA and BEHRINGER products (as with the companies listed above), you would likely end up with 0.52%, and that’s where numbers need to be properly interpreted.

311splawndude, I am not here to argue with you, but since the written word on the Internet remains, it is even more important that arguments stay factual and this is why I am here engaged in this discussion.

On some of your other points I guess we see things differently, which is what makes life interesting!
We can agree to disagree.

Thanks!

Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

 

[311splawndude]

OK.

Thanks for your response Joe and taking the time to post here.

 

[Arby911]

First of all we never stated that BUGERA has a failure rate of 1% and if you read my earlier post, it refers to as an example.


Thanks!

Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

Fair enough, what is the actual failure rate?

Also, tubes aren't nearly as fragile as you appear to be implying (I have worked on a LOT of military equipment that was tube driven, and it was incredibly robust...), and under overload conditions tubes actually survive far better than solid state equipment, but that's a discussion for another day...

 

[PhloridaMan]

This entire post just made my day... LOL!

I'm the brand manager (VP) for BUGERA have been with the company (on and off) since 1999 and before the brand was even introduced in the US.

Thanks for letting me join the thread...

Dan Gallagher
VP Instrument Amplification Division
The MUSIC Group
dan.gallagher@music-group.com

Thanks for joining Rig-Talk to discuss your company's point of view.

Quality is our #1 concern when manufacturing products

Components such as tubes, resistors, capacitors, connectors, sockets, etc. are all sourced from the same place (all manufacturers) these days (and virtually ALL are made in China...including transformers).

Really?

by designing the INFINIUM tube life extender and incorporating it into many of our classic design models. Basically a tube can fail completely and the amp will auto bias the remaining tubes and redirect power there to get you through a gig. On many of our amplifiers (with INFINIUM), you can swap tubes with virtually anything you can socket - similar to the old THD trick (i'm a big fan of Andy's designs

No. Just no.

Some other interesting facts (I hope anyway
1. - Company failure rates are far below 1%
2. - BUGERA amplifiers come with a 3-YEAR warranty, the longest warranty in the industry.
3. - We have a NEW! CARE CENTER in the US, and they have an ample supply of parts and expert technical information.

1.) 'Far below 1%' Really? I have seen (on Thomann and other sources) that the failure rate is higher than 1%. I have statistics from Thomann that show +3% for sure, unfortunately that is the only one I can still find. For some reason I don't think Thomann lists failure rates anymore.

2.) Longest warranty in the industry at 3 years? Seriously, what are they teaching you over there.

3.) Then why does it take so long, as of this day, for people to get parts and answers?

We've had, and continue to experience, a fair bit of success ourselves selling amplifiers:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/amplifiers_for ... itars.html
https://www.guitarcenter.com/Combo-Guita ... .gc?ipp=25

Perception is always reality, but we are making and 'selling' some fantastic amplifiers at the moment.

Dan Gallagher
VP IA Division
The MUSIC Group
Dan.gallagher@music-group.com

I'm not sure what those two URLs are supposed to prove. We already understand that you sell a lot of product.

First of all we are always open to criticism and here to listen.

However wouldn’t you agree that making such strong accusations without facts is inappropriate?

Best regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

Wonderful. Thank you as well for signing up here to absorb some criticism and provide facts to refute the accusations.

BUGERA has been around now for over 5 years and we are very proud that it has become a leading tube amp brand.

In fact, BUGERA is now the number one selling tube amp brand in Europe, based on Thomann who is Europe’s largest retailer.
https://www.thomann.de/gb/tube_guitar_combos.html

The V22 is selling so well, that it has become the top selling guitar amp overall in Europe.
https://www.thomann.de/gb/amplifiers_for ... itars.html
(see right side of website for Top Sellers)

Again, as noted, we are all very happy for you and your company. I personally really like the the V22. Cool little amp. I'm not sure if it is a copy of anything and I have heard of very few problems with it. Although I don't agree with your business model per say, I have to give kudos to your marketing department for pumping up your amps and getting so many shipped out of the factory.

BTW - the comparison of Bugera to Cameron are ridiculous. Two completely different things in my opinion.

The conversation about quality is an interesting one. When you build products in such high quantities such as BUGERA with extremely low margins, you have to watch the quality of your components even more as the slightest problem can wipe out all your profit. This is the reason why we own our factory and don’t leave manufacturing to any third party that does not care as much as we do about quality. And that’s also why we now offer a 3-Year Warranty Program for each amp. Our failure rate is one of the lowest in the industry and please don’t take our word for it, but talk to anyone who sells our amps such as Guitar Center etc.

Is it safe to say that most of your buyers are young and inexperienced? Is it true that most of your amps are sold on-line and not in stores? What was the reasoning behind the plastic clip from the power transformer to the board?

As usual, tubes are the most fragile component. No matter how well you test them (and we do test them extremely well), transportation and handling can often damage them. If there are any amp defects, 95% are related to tubes and that’s why we invented the Infinium technology, which constantly monitors tubes by adjusting their bias so they run in the optimal mode, and Infinium tells you when you need to replace a tube. You don’t need to buy a matched quartet anymore and you can just plug in ANY tube that fits. You can mix and match EL34, 6L6 and create great new tone combinations and sounds.
Also, Infinium can shut down an individual tube if it’s defective without shutting down your amp which is great when you are playing on stage, so your show goes on. I am quite pleased to say, that BUGERA has invested a lot in R&D and new technologies such as Infinium and Varipower etc. And I am proud of the tone, amps like the TRIREC are achieving.

Poor tube quality seem to be one of the biggest culprits in your high gain amp failures. Tubes are actually not fragile by the way. If you test them so extremely well then why are your tubes causing so many problems? For what it is worth, I do not see Infinium working as you, and Bugera, claim. Also, removing the external test points and bias potentiometer in the new series was a mistake in my opinion. Can you explain to me what exact researh and dev went into this Infinium technology? What about Varipower? Is that part of your intellectual property rights as well? Yes, the TriRec sounds good in the online demos I've seen.

Dear Barron55,

In regards to your comments about our TRIREC looking too much like another amp, frankly I could not disagree more as both amps look very different.
 
Our TRIREC also features innovative features such as VARIPOWER, INFINIUM Tube Life Multiplier technology, 3-Mode Rectifier (tube, solid state and mixed), Reverb, Midi, etc.
 
For those unfamiliar with VARIPOWER, here is a description from our amp designer Jan Duwe:
 
Technically, the VARIPOWER function is able to reduce the effective electrical field in which electrons are accelerated from cathode to anode. When VARIPOWER is turned up to the maximum, the electrical field acts just like in any normal 100-Watt push-pull power amplifier.
 
The integrated INFINIUM Valve Life Multiplier Technology ensures the optimum bias current adjustment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8GxgtLSadw
 
The more the VARIPOWER control is turned down, the lower the effective electrical field in the output tubes, roughly comparable to a smaller power transformer being installed in the amplifier. This reduces the maximum power available to the amplifier, but not necessarily the resulting volume. The volume actually decreases only when comparing signals close to the clipping limits. To give a practical example: let’s say a typical volume level for a rehearsal room does not require more
than 20 Watts (especially when using a 4 x 12 cabinet). In this context, the VARIPOWER control on the TRIREC could be lowered by 50 - 70% (starting at the max position) before it will provide obvious audible differences in volume to the user.
 
It is not until the output level of the preamp stage (“Master” control) is so high, that the reduced power amp capacity can’t reproduce the signals properly through the speakers. This is where VARIPOWER does its magic:

• The signal peaks will be clipped more or less, depending on the preamp setting
• The distortion created in the tube power amp stage is superimposed over the one that originates from the preamp stage
• The sound thickens and appears to be more compressed
• Overall this produces an effect Eddie Van Halen used to call the “brown sound“

Best regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

Again, how is this different than say what Mesa or Egnater does? I'm not smart enough to read to schematic and determine that on my own. If you have schematics, that would be great though.

Dear Yeti,

The answer is very simple: As long as people don’t infringe on our protected IP, we certainly have no problem. If a design is not protected, everyone is entitled to use it.

This is the principle in any industry and the basis how the world evolves.

How many Strat type guitars are out there?

Best regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

:lol LOL:

Dear Blackba,

Let me first start by saying that it is our company’s policy to post with our full identity as we believe in an open and honest approach, rather than hide behind anonymity. We also like to thank the people here who have welcomed us to participate.

We are here to respond with facts and stay away from topics where we cannot respond meaningfully. We certainly accept everyone’s opinion and all we’re asking is to engage each other respectfully and politely.

We certainly understand that there are always “haters.” We have encountered several posts about allegedly “defective” amps and when we followed up, offered help, and asked for serial numbers, we didn’t get a response. We can only assume that these are people who have different motives or who are really competitors trying to discredit our brand.

There are other great brands and amps out there - isn’t it wonderful that we have choices?

Since you mentioned that “we are not here to look for suggestions how to improve our products,” why don’t you make a suggestion so we can start a great conversation?

Best regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

Thanks for listening.

Hopefully, this will turn out differently than another experience of mine on another web site where a Music Group Manager from Seattle came on, said he would answer any questions, and then never came back. He also created multiple accounts on that web site, which is against forum rules.

Best regards,

Some guy on the Internet

Dear Flux’D,

We see that you just joined the forum, specifically “mentioning” a competitor while criticizing our brand.

Allow us to correct some of your statements.

The amps you are referring to simply cannot compare in complexity and component count. The BUGERA 333 and 333XL amps shown here are highly complex products with many more channels and controls, our Infinium Micro-Processor to bias the power tubes, a digital reverb, and much more complex circuitry that results in a vastly increased component count and complex wiring. If you like to compare simple designs and PCB layouts, perhaps you should look at our V5 or V22 which are more in line with the simple PCB designs you are referring to.

When it comes to component quality, we use FR4 double-sided fiberglass PCB’s, full steel chassis, oversized transformers, 105 degree e-caps, etc. Rather than making derogatory statements about our overall quality, perhaps you would like to discuss individual components in detail so we make this a more meaningful discussion?

Failure reports stem from an early defective connector, something we fixed 5 years ago. Unfortunately, these things happen in any industry otherwise there wouldn’t be any car recalls or plane groundings over a battery problem. This problem is long gone, we stood up and helped our customers. Based on feedback from our dealers such as Thomann and Guitar Center, we have one of the lowest failure rates in the industry.

This has made it easy to offer a 3-Year Warranty Program on all products. But rather than taking our word for it, please reach out to these retailers and get first-hand information.

As I mentioned earlier, we are proud to be Europe’s number one tube amp brand and the V22 is the best-selling amp overall based on Europe’s largest retailer Thomann who publishes its numbers. We are also very pleased that GC is about to expand the BUGERA offerings due to the very positive response the V22 and V5 have achieved.

We have been building products for over 24 years and our factory makes over 5 million products a year. You can easily understand that with the small margin we are making on our products, any major failure rate would easily bankrupt our Company. That’s why our focus on quality is a constant never-ending process. The rule in manufacturing is that the higher the production volume is, the more attention you have to pay to quality and that’s why we have a rigorous quality department where we “torture” components in temperature, humidity, and salt water corrosion chambers, do drop tests where we drop products to simulate shipment conditions and life cycle tests where we move VR’s and switches hundreds of thousands of times.

Two years ago, we invested over $20 million in one of the most sophisticated and automated plants. By making products in our own factory, we are able to control quality and cost. Unlike other competitors who often use 3rd party manufacturers, our factory does not have to make a profit. In many cases, we are buying the exact same components but in millions of quantities and so we get prices for a fraction of what other manufacturers have to pay.

It has always been our philosophy to pass on these savings to the end users and this is the reason why we can offer BUGERA amps at such low prices.

Best regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

PS: I just saw this. 'Pass on these savings'? Really?

Looks like Flux'd is just an internet browser like myself. That's what we do in forums. We praise and criticize. We are not direct competitors of yours, like Peavey. We are utilizing free speech to bring up topics that we want addressed. For what it is worth, we criticize all kinds of brands here (right or wrong) so you'll just have to get used to it. Marshall, Egnater, Splawn, Cameron, Friedman, etc. The list goes on. They are get criticized at one point or another.

Our engineers are now also working on integrating our proprietary Infinium technology into all remaining amps as this technology poses great advantages to extend power tube life as well as eliminating the risk for an amp to shut down during a concert in case a power tube goes bad.

One of the most exciting projects we have been working on over the last three years, is our LifeTube. This is a new 12AX7 that is fully compatible with a traditional glass-type 12AX7 and comes in multiple versions that replicate the exact tone of an original Mullard, RCA, etc. The LifeTube has zero microphonics and comes with a lifetime warranty. What’s cool is that you can mix and match

them to achieve new tones.

Hope this helps

Best regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

You've been working on 'LifeTube' for over three years? How is it different than the JetCity version that was brought up or its original design from the 60's as mentioned. Seriously, how is it different?


OK. Thanks, Bye.

 

[rlord1974]

First of all we never stated that BUGERA has a failure rate of 1% and if you read my earlier post, it refers to as an example.


Thanks!

Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

Fair enough, what is the actual failure rate?

Yeah, seriously. Stop dancing around the subject and confusing it by saying "if you add Behringer to Bugera...". Blah, blah, blah.

Can you just post what Bugera's failure rate was, as reported to your Board of Directors at the end of your last fiscal quarter?

 

[PhloridaMan]

83%

First of all we never stated that BUGERA has a failure rate of 1% and if you read my earlier post, it refers to as an example.


Thanks!

Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

Fair enough, what is the actual failure rate?

Yeah, seriously. Stop dancing around the subject and confusing it by saying "if you add Behringer to Bugera...". Blah, blah, blah.

Can you just post what Bugera's failure rate was, as reported to your Board of Directors at the end of your last fiscal quarter?

 

[Ventura]

I'm disturbed by any company that would clone a JCM900 dual reverb...

Ooh wah ka ka ka.

 

[blackba]

 

[PhloridaMan]

I'm disturbed by any company that would clone a JCM900 dual reverb...

Ooh wah ka ka ka.

Does no one like JCM900 4100 Dual Reverb? I will just keep mine hidden in the closet then LOL!

 

[dr.underhill]

If you like an amp and it sounds good to you, buy it and enjoy it regardless of what somebody else thinks of it. If you think the amp is junk, move on and buy something else.

Your quote is the best so far on this thread. That's all that matters.

amen on the first comment, amen as well on the second comment.
i believe this dead horse has been flogged enough at this point.

 

[311splawndude]

I was really hoping I wasn't going to have to do this again....but

Dear 311splawndude,

Thank you for your comments.

Allow me to offer a different view.

If you do a Google search query about the fragility of tubes, you will find the following article:
http://voices.yahoo.com/when-replace-va ... tml?cat=33

“A vacuum tube's construction is very similar to an incandescent light bulb, consisting of a glass envelope from which all of the air has been extracted. Inside this vacuum are heat-emitting elements which will eventually burn out. Likewise, vacuum tubes are fragile, too, and are highly vulnerable to the physical impacts of the road and the vibrations of high-volume playing.”

Every tube manufacturer and retailer will tell you, that tube amps have a higher failure rate by nature than solid state amps; exactly for the reasons above.

Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

I found most of that Yahoo article to be a joke. I don't need to be schooled by a Bugera Manager about the basics of vacuum tubes. Maybe the tubes Bugera uses are made in China and have a problem. Yes, that I would agree with you on. "Pass on the savings" sort of speak. New old stock, SED and JJs are frickin robust tubes man. There are original tubes from the 70's and 80's that are still running fine. The article says 'Replace tubes annually if not more frequently'? Sorry, I guess I don't use Yahoo as a source for information.

Additionally, my Splawn tube amp has never failed and it was accidentally ran with a guitar signal and without a load by a friend by mistake. It comes from a family of amps that are made solid as a rock (similar to Soldano, Roccaforte, Mesa and even Peavey to a fair degree). My first amp was also 100 watts and had lots of features but was prone to high failure rates (Fender Frontman). You should see the inside of Peavey Vypyr 60. It has higher quality components than you would expect from an amp made in China. Similarly, my Valveking was also a solid performer and they are known for having good quality as well.

In the case of BUGERA, we almost exclusively make Tube Amps and since those products have a higher failure rate by nature,

Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

[edited for sentence structure]

That reads to me as if the failures (due to poor QC) are not Bugera's fault. As if it is the fault of the tubes. Because Bugera only makes tube amps your failure rate may appear higher? Huh?

More important you have to carefully read those Thomann numbers above. These numbers relate to sold items versus subsequent defective returns.

Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

I don't know what that means. Do you mean DOA's vs Warranty Exchanges?

When interpreting those numbers, one has to first look at the nature of the products a company is selling. If you are in the guitar strings and picks business only, you will likely see a 0% failure rate, as no customer would return consumables.

Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

Wrong. If I bought some guitar strings and they were rusted or snapped when I opened them up I would return them. If I bought a pack of Jazz IIIs and the edges were chipped, I would return them as well. And guess what? I would probably bitch about it on the internet as well. Insert coin....try again.

To put this in perspective, BEHRINGER’s indicated failure rate was at 0.51% before Thomann switched off the system. Compared to other similar companies, I believe at the time only three Japanese companies had lower rates.

If you would combine the failure rate of BUGERA and BEHRINGER products (as with the companies listed above), you would likely end up with 0.52%, and that’s where numbers need to be properly interpreted.

Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

Wait, did you just say that the Bugera failures would only drag down the overall Behringer failures in your example by .01 %

??

But yeah, I agree with rlord1974. Let's not mix this up.

311splawndude, I am not here to argue with you, but since the written word on the Internet remains, it is even more important that arguments stay factual and this is why I am here engaged in this discussion.

Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

Couldn't agree more




Oh, and one more thing:

First of all we never stated that BUGERA has a failure rate of 1% and if you read my earlier post, it refers to as an example.

Joe Sanborn
Manager, Channel Marketing
MUSIC Group
BUGERA

Wrong.

Your VP said this.

Some other interesting facts (I hope anyway
- Company failure rates are far below 1%
- BUGERA amplifiers come with a 3-YEAR warranty, the longest warranty in the industry.
- We have a NEW! CARE CENTER in the US, and they have an ample supply of parts and expert technical information.

Dan Gallagher
VP Instrument Amplification Division
The MUSIC Group
dan.gallagher@music-group.com

That is why I came here to defend Bugera owners who have had issues.

And you can't say that that is 'Out of Context' or 'a mix of Behringer too' because if you read the rest of Dan's post, he is specifically talking about Bugera and not Behringer or Music Group.



Good day.

I'm done.

 

[Mailman1971]

[No message]

 

[PhloridaMan]

They might want to just chose which one of their reps is going to come in here and fill the thread full of BS so they don't have conflicting BS...

 

[tfridgen]

OK.

Thanks for your response Joe and taking the time to post here.

Did you forget you posted this in reply to Joe already?