What do I need to complete a wet/dry rig?

[rstites]

That probably makes the most sense. Note that I already have a stereo power amp in the Velocity 300. I suspect the MPX-1 by itself is enough time-based effects to do everything I need.

What I could do is go whole hog in here: run each amp through it's own 4x12 center and then use the GCX to switch between amps, sharing the outside cabs for stereo - basically two W/D/W rigs for the price of one......not hauling that any place!

 

[Econ]

I have a Friedman 4x12 that I plan to use as the dry cab. What would you recommend for wet cabs? Couple of 2x12’’s or a couple of 1x12’s?

 

[rstites]

I think 1x12's would be fine, so long as the speakers have enough power handling for what you need. That's probably what I'd look for if I didn't already have 2x12s.

OTOH, vertical 2x12s are nice since they're the same height as the 4x12s and make perfect places to set my rack units and easy-handle height. I've looked around lately and noticed that 2nd hand 2x12s run about the same price as 4x12s. It really does seem like guitar players overall are moving away from 4x12s.

 

[ChurchHill]

Well, the first thing I'd say is that you can build your rig to work with either the SLO or either of the Mesas. IIRC, they all have line/slave outs.

To me, it seems like the choice of running a single Marshall cab for the dry in the middle and using 1 Mesa cab on either side, making a W/D/W rig is going to sound the best. In a W/D rig, reverbs are going to sound weird coming from only one side, and you'd be missing half the imaging from panning or ping-pong delays. If you're going to gig with a W/D rig, you'll either have to sum to mono FOH or half the audience isn't going to hear your effects. Those are the reasons I'd recommend a full W/D/W rig.

Since your power amp is stereo, and you've got three cabs, so sholuldn't need anything else along those lines.

So, with your GCX, you could use loops 1-4 for your OD, flanger, volume, and wah. After that, you'd go back into the amp with a dry cab connected and the line out running back to GCX loop 5.

One thing... I'm not sure if the GCX always sends the input to the output of each loop except when there is something plugged into the return. I think it does, but I'd have to double check the manual. If it doesn't you could use a buffer or splitter with 1-in/4-out, or 3 1-in/2-out buffers. I know JHS makes a good 1-in/2-out buffer and I'm 99% certain that Analog Man would add extra outputs to one of their buffers. Of course, you could use your Rane for this, but I think there's a better use for it later.

OK, the send of loops 5-8 would be sent to 4 different processors. Any 4 will work, so it's entirely your decision. However, based on what you have, here's what I'd probably pick. And of course, you could change your mind at any time, since all you'd have to do is pull one out of the rack and put the new one in it's place. Anyway...
5 - Ibanez AD202
6 - Rocktron Prorax Chorus
7 - TC Electronic G-Major
8 - Lexicon MPX-1

You can turn each one on by enabling the corresponding loop and you'll get tails from any time-based effects (delay, reverb, etc.).

From there, you'd run the output of each processor in stereo to the Rane SM26S. Using the "Main Input" gives you 8 channels. While that channel is already stereo, don't forget to set the other stereo pairs to pan hard right and hard left as appropriate.

Run the main output from the Rane SM26S to your Velocity 300 power amp (again, set to stereo) and connect each side to one of the Mesa cabs. You can still get a switchable analog dry path through to the wet amps simply by bypassing the Ibanez AD202 (assuming that it's all analog, which I believe it it). Another option would be the Rocktron Prorax Chorus, but only if it is all analog.

What this doesn't give you is midi control of your amp's foot-switching functions or a MIDI pedal to control the rig. For MIDI control, I'd recommend either a RJM Mini Amp Gizmo or a Voodoo Lab Control Switcher. For a MIDI pedal, pretty much anything will do, but I'd look for one that can send Continuous Controller (CC) messages as well as program change messages. It'd be even better if it had either one or more built in for jacks for external foot controllers (EB VPJr would be my recommendation, but there are lots of options), or built in foot controllers. Both the TC and especially the Lexicon can greatly be enhanced with continuous controllers.

Another alternative for channel switching is to not use one of the loops 5-8 for a processor but for a switch. I know you'd mentioned that, and you're right, it would work just fine. You could have any combination of processors and switches that best suited your needs. Just keep in mind that, if you want dry signal in the wet cabs, you'll need one loop for that if you might ever want to switch it off and another loop to use as a bypass switch if you don't want to leave it on all the time. Of course, if you don't care if you can turn off the dry in the wet cabs, you can just add it to your Rane SM26S and use the loop for switching.

If you wanted to change this to a W/W rig, I would either use one of the Boogies with the power amp turned off, or the Boogies or SLO running into a suitable load box. The Suhr reactive load gets a lot of love for that, as does most all of the 2 Notes products. There are other options here, too.

Anyway, I've probably rambled enough tonight. I still owe you the pics and diagrams... hopefully, I'll get to them tomorrow.

 

[ChurchHill]

I have a Friedman 4x12 that I plan to use as the dry cab. What would you recommend for wet cabs? Couple of 2x12’’s or a couple of 1x12’s?

Either would work, although with a center 4x12, personally, I'd lean toward two 2x12s.

 

[rstites]

Thanks for the long post. I'm headed out of town for an extended Christmas vacation, so all of this is just talking until I get back and start hooking things up.....which requires some serious physical shifting of things about my studio area as a prerequisite!

Some quick comments on gear:

Rane SM26S....

Anyone reading this getting ideas, warning: most of the SM26's require a proprietary power brick deal that hasn't been made for several years. Everyone on ebay and Reverb sells them without the power supply. You can easily get them for $25-30, only to find out that you'll be spending close to $100 for the damn power supply afterward.

The SM26S I found requires a standard power cable - like the ones into a laptop brick - that you can buy for $5 off Amazon.

The AD202 is 2U of glorious analog delay. It can be set to do one and only one sound at a time. It's fairly short delay, it's noisy, and it's beautiful. It has the best flanger sound I've heard out of anything anywhere. However, I think the MPX-1 may have a great (but different) flanger in it that won't be noisy and will match up better. I'm a flanger guy. I hated chorus through the 80's and have never been a big fan of it. A little unnoticeable chorus for stereo separation is cool, but not thick.

The Prorax Chorus may be great. I took it as part of a trade years ago, but have never tracked down a 15V power supply for it. It works with 9V enough to demonstrate that it works ok. I should double check work when I get back, as I have an entire collection of oddball power supplies there. I think it's all analog, but honestly don't know. It's on a shelf and hasn't been touched in a decade probably - yeah, I have an excess of gear around that I don't use.

Midipedals: I actually do have the original Ground Control and a Rocktron Midimate around. I should have mentioned them, but didn't think about it. I'd like to have one of them on the floor with three controllers: one for volume, one for wah, and one for CC to a rack unit. I have several volume pedals around.

The routing certainly gets interesting. Once you decide to use channels from the GCX to do switching, it eats things up in a hurry. It does seem like another unit would be helpful there, or I can use standard footswitches for the amps....at least for now. I think I have both for the Mk III.

These discussions are what lead to GAS. I keep thinking of more stuff I "need" to make this work!

 

[mentoneman]

my old w/d rig sound clips using a peacemaker head with pedals in front of the dry, and a g-force post amp via hotplate line out in mono as the wet signal feeding a tech 21 power engine.

https://soundcloud.com/mentoneman/w-d-p ... test-11-12

it is possible to survive using w/d, yes it can sound really good, as it was my preferred method of live rig use when primarily monitoring on stage using my own speaker rig, after almost 15 continuous year of live performing, and I have run every type of rig; mono, stereo, w/d and w/d/w

if running in ears monitoring I liked stereo with a w/d/w mentality in execution; running a middle dry line signal up the center of the mix and blending 100% wet panned left and right ala studio fx mixing console. you loose some impact on certain effects with the middle dry image always present like tremolo, chorus, phaser, panner, if not run in front of the dry path, but gain stability of your core sound not getting lost.

 

[ChurchHill]

Yeah, absolutely possible! Funny thing is, no matter how big my rack gets or how many pedalboards I have, the majority of the time when I just pick up a guitar to play, I just plug straight in to the closest amp.

I've run every type of rig, too. Mono, especially for jams just 'cause it's easier. Stereo, when I'm using my cabs as monitors (I simply prefer it to W/D, but I've done that, too). W/D/W when I've had the space (and the help to move it). I'll run W/D/W at home, too, but it's soooooo easy to get lost in creating new sounds and not create music. Not that there's anything wrong with that, and sometimes, that's what I want to do, just get lost.

I think you've hit the nail on the head, too. It's really about getting live sounds closer to studio sounds. I like rigs that allow you to turn off the dry so you can still get the impact of panners, etc., but have it on most of the time to retain the focus.

I think, in two (or more) guitar bands, it's really easy to get into overkill. Still possible, though, just takes more consideration of what part of the arrangement and frequency spectrum to fill (and when).

One of my favorite W/D rigs is a simple pair of old Marshalls or Hiwatts with an EP-3 feeding the dry to one side and the wet to the other, maybe a Tone Bender in front. Just huge and warm and beautiful.

 

[Econ]

Wish Friedman would build vertical 2x12’s. That would be an ideal solution for me.

I think 1x12's would be fine, so long as the speakers have enough power handling for what you need. That's probably what I'd look for if I didn't already have 2x12s.

OTOH, vertical 2x12s are nice since they're the same height as the 4x12s and make perfect places to set my rack units and easy-handle height. I've looked around lately and noticed that 2nd hand 2x12s run about the same price as 4x12s. It really does seem like guitar players overall are moving away from 4x12s.

 

[midnightlaundry]

In before Zachman.

Yes!

 

[rstites]

While thinking about this all day - flight across the country for Xmas! - it strikes me that W/D is really what stereo rigs were back in the day. People would split a signal from a chorus or delay into two identical amps. That split sent the chorus/delay side to one amp and the dry signal to the other.

That's what I did with rack systems 20 years ago with very good affect. My primary rig was a Soldano SP-77 -> Chandler SDE (split stereo) -> Meas 50/50 -> Mesa 2x12s. It sounded pretty darn good. I just put a bit of delay between the two sides so I could sound like doubled up guitars on stage. I did run through an old Ibanez SDR-1000+ for reverb as it's a true stereo unit. I did run some effects before the split too (mono) so they'd hit both sides.

I supposed I really end up in the same place now if I run the SLO direct/dry out to a 4x12 and then split off the DI for a 100% wet delay*, just to make things sound bigger and thicker. What it really fails out for stereo are far fancier sounds, like ping-pong echoes and swirls that move across the stereo spectrum.

* Delay here could well mean a modulated delay (chorus) or even just some basic pitch shift. The idea really is to sound like two synced up guitar players in unison with just enough variance in pitch and time to sound like two players rather than one.

 

[ChurchHill]

Thanks for the long post. I'm headed out of town for an extended Christmas vacation [...]

First, hope you have a great Christmas and a relaxing vacation!

I meant to reply to you in greater detail tonight, but I just didn't get around to it. I'm dealing with some familiy medical issues (mother-in-law) and it's been taking too much of my time. Just wanted to let you know why if things take me a little while longer to get done at times.

 

[ChurchHill]

Wish Friedman would build vertical 2x12’s. That would be an ideal solution for me.

I think there'd be a lot of people who'd share this wish. They'd be perfect for rigs like this, perfect for Friedman's smaller amps, and easier to move around.

 

[Docster]

I finished a W-D-W rig over the summer, strictly for home use. Here is a pic on a wall rack:

and here is a pic of the connections made:

Now keep in mind that the W-D-W portion of the rig is the Friedman BE100 and Friedman cabs only (center 212 and L/R 112's). If I want I can add the Herbert (with Orange and Mills cabs) into the mix as well. Hit me up if you have any questions.

Close up of the rack:

has a MPX-1, MLC Dual Stereo line mixer, and a Matrix GT1000FX

 

[RedB4Black]

Close up of the rack:

has a MPX-1, MLC Dual Stereo line mixer, and a Matrix GT1000FX

Looks good! I still need to order some of those custom 1/4 inch to XLR cables you had made. I was able to compare the sound of the MPX1 using 1/4 inch and xlr inputs/outputs using my Atomic Firebox. The MPX1s effects do sound a lot better using the XLR ins/outs

 

[ChurchHill]

Docster, I really like the looks of that Mark L DSLM. How is it working out for you, how does it sound?

 

[ChurchHill]

These discussions are what lead to GAS. I keep thinking of more stuff I "need" to make this work!

Good point about the SM26. I've got 2 that use IEC power cables and 1 that uses that weird brick. Looks like a CAT5 network cable or something. Wish they still made them.

That AD202 sounds like an amazing piece of kit! Hearing a self-admitted flanger guy say it's the best flanger you've ever heard really says a lot. I'm a fan of flangers, too, or rather most modulation. I like chorus that sounds more like a flanger (Electric Mistress) - short delays, slow speeds, or like the slight modulation in a DMM or an EP-3 with a capstan that's not quite as tight as it should be. Never cared much for how most people (over)used chorus in the 80s. I like flangers with a nice, slow sweep, not a ton of feedback, that sound like it folds back on itself. Thru-zero is cool, but there aren't a lot of analog options for that. More like an old MXR, ADA, or Ross. If the AD202 sounds better than that, I'm gonna have to start looking...

I've got a newer Voodoo Lab Ground Control. You're right about things getting interesting when incorporating channel switching into all this. What I do, and who knows if this would work for anyone else, is this: I look at each preset on the controller as a "song." I use the bottom row for 4 channel presets, including effects: 1 clean, 1 rhythm, 1 lead, and 1 extra that depends on the song. The middle row I use for instant access for the pedals in front, and I use the top row for instant access of the first layer post-amp effects (in the rig I was describing earlier, SPX90, H3000, and GTR4000). The last button is for tap tempo.

While I don't have instant access to the second layer post-amp effects (Eclipse, PCM92), those aren't as likely to change in any given song. One I'll dedicate to clean sounds (usually the Eclipse) and the other to dirty (usually the PCM92). Then, if I need a delay on only some of the rhythm parts, I can use the middle row to quickly switch it on. If I need some modulation on the clean sound, I can program it into the preset, but still turn it off if I need to for short passages. If I need some harmony on the lead sound, I can either program it into the preset (possibly using the extra channel for a 2nd lead sound), or I can switch it on and off as needed.

Of course, there are a few things I can't do with instant access (like switching the TERC, or have a "hot switch" like on the Eventide Space, but I can live without those. It all comes down to what I want the rig to do for me, and this was the best solution I could come up with at the time I designed it.

Anyway, you're absolutely right... nothing inspires GAS more than talking about rigs like this (now including the AD202 in my case).

 

[ChurchHill]

I was able to compare the sound of the MPX1 using 1/4 inch and xlr inputs/outputs using my Atomic Firebox. The MPX1s effects do sound a lot better using the XLR ins/outs

Yeah, I thought so, too. IMHO, everything I've personally tried that could use either 1/4" or XLR always sounded better with the XLR. Most units use the same "hot" pin, but I always check the user manual first, just to be sure.

 

[Docster]

Docster, I really like the looks of that Mark L DSLM. How is it working out for you, how does it sound?

I have never used a line mixer before so I can't provide feedback vs a RJM, Suhr or CAE mixer. It does do exactly as it was intended and I have additional flexibility if I ever wanted to add more to the mix. Keep in mind that if you go down this rabbit hole, the RJM and Suhr are widely available, but the Mark L takes about 2 months as it is made in a small shop in Poland. Two months was a long time when dealing with GAS!

 

[ChurchHill]

Certainly sounds interesting, but yeah... two months is a long time to wait. I've been really happy with my Ranes and I'm using an RJM loop switcher (which has also been great). The Ranes do more than just mixing (I'm using several channels as line balancers/level shifters), but the idea of having 2 mixers in 1 rack space is definitely appealing.

Thanks for letting me know your opinion!