Yo Von…

VonBonfire said:
I don't think it would be competing or overtaking. It just becomes a problem if they are as gods when "the earth and the fullness thereof are the Lord's" Psalm 24:1 I do not think they could create (in the same sense) or do anything to overtake him as God is all powerful, but they would no longer hold him in the same regard. He created them for his glory, to worship and serve him. To tend his garden.

They were without sin in the Garden and there was no death, no sorrow or sighing. They would not have figured out evil on their own because it doesn't exist there. Would you trade the knowledge of evil if it meant no more earthly sorrow for you and others? I guess I'd preface that with "do you even believe in "evil"? If not I'm not sure this is even a conversation we can have. It seems like your average atheist/agnostic/non believer type of person basically writes their own commandments, what they consider good/evil, basically setting themselves up as God yet they are unable to grasp they are just mimicking what God did, because they are created in his image. And with that I have made the circle as we read Crowley's "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"....another occult practicioner who believed the lie he could become as gods. So really atheism is satanism/demonism hidden because ultimately it's practice has the same core tenet "do what thou wilt". I'm probably digressing....
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cough @acceptance cough cough
 
VonBonfire said:
I don't think it would be competing or overtaking. It just becomes a problem if they are as gods when "the earth and the fullness thereof are the Lord's" Psalm 24:1 I do not think they could create (in the same sense) or do anything to overtake him as God is all powerful, but they would no longer hold him in the same regard. He created them for his glory, to worship and serve him. To tend his garden.

They were without sin in the Garden and there was no death, no sorrow or sighing. They would not have figured out evil on their own because it doesn't exist there. Would you trade the knowledge of evil if it meant no more earthly sorrow for you and others? I guess I'd preface that with "do you even believe in "evil"? If not I'm not sure this is even a conversation we can have. It seems like your average atheist/agnostic/non believer type of person basically writes their own commandments, what they consider good/evil, basically setting themselves up as God yet they are unable to grasp they are just mimicking what God did, because they are created in his image. And with that I have made the circle as we read Crowley's "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"....another occult practicioner who believed the lie he could become as gods. So really atheism is satanism/demonism hidden because ultimately it's practice has the same core tenet "do what thou wilt". I'm probably digressing....
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I've had this up on my screen today, haven't had a chance to follow up yet. Dish duty again, but will do...🧼
 
VonBonfire said:
I don't think it would be competing or overtaking. It just becomes a problem if they are as gods when "the earth and the fullness thereof are the Lord's" Psalm 24:1 I do not think they could create (in the same sense) or do anything to overtake him as God is all powerful, but they would no longer hold him in the same regard. He created them for his glory, to worship and serve him. To tend his garden.

They were without sin in the Garden and there was no death, no sorrow or sighing. They would not have figured out evil on their own because it doesn't exist there. Would you trade the knowledge of evil if it meant no more earthly sorrow for you and others? I guess I'd preface that with "do you even believe in "evil"? If not I'm not sure this is even a conversation we can have. It seems like your average atheist/agnostic/non believer type of person basically writes their own commandments, what they consider good/evil, basically setting themselves up as God yet they are unable to grasp they are just mimicking what God did, because they are created in his image. And with that I have made the circle as we read Crowley's "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"....another occult practicioner who believed the lie he could become as gods. So really atheism is satanism/demonism hidden because ultimately it's practice has the same core tenet "do what thou wilt". I'm probably digressing....
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Again, even if they were immortal and had knowledge of good and evil I don't see how that would be a threat to God. It seems that God is being very insecure with feeling threatened and so offended that they disobeyed him by eating the fruit. It's kind of like the faith test I alluded to, it's just dumb mind games in my opinion. People throughout history haven't held God in regard and they aren't immortal. I guess if God wants slave toys to honor and worship him, water his garden that's fine but it says something to me about his personality. I think real relationships are symbiotic, and I suspect perhaps you see this in the dynamic but aren't articulating it here. I don't though. There was death because God quit letting them eat the tree of immortality, and that was his choice.

Was it really a sin, was it really evil? That's ridiculous in my view. Sure, I believe in evil, but as you note, it's by my own definition, not Gods. And I agree with Christian apologists that without God there is no objective morality. Even Christians disagree about what is right or wrong though, and they're supposed to have the Holy Spirit. Yes, I think people just have their own views of right and wrong, or at least are entitled to. And I take it further in that I think humans are basically like advanced apes in the jungle, competing for resources and tribal dominance, but we use our intellect to make up complicated stories to justify and rationalize what we do. That's not to say I don't personally find various behaviors lovely or repulsive at a gut level, but I don't know that there really is such a thing as good or bad, objectively so. I appreciate what Crowley is saying, but it comes across as psychopathic, so hopefully it is tempered by some moral code beyond lusts of the flesh. I haven't read him though, so I can't really comment. But yes, I understand from the Christian perspective how any rejection of God's law is satanic. That's why I admit I'm satanic, from within a Christian paradigm anyways. As I've mentioned, there are noble and worthy attributes that could be attributed to Lucifer, and Jesus too for that matter. But I don't personally feel like I worship a comic book villain, while I'm sure you may think I'm deluding myself about that.
 
acceptance said:
Again, even if they were immortal and had knowledge of good and evil I don't see how that would be a threat to God.
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"ye shall become as gods..." Seems like God wouldn't appreciate anyone trying to take his job away.

acceptance said:
It seems that God is being very insecure with feeling threatened and so offended that they disobeyed him by eating the fruit.
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He was looking out for their best interests. The Lord walked in the garden where they existed during the breezy time of day.

acceptance said:
if God wants slave toys to honor and worship him, water his garden that's fine but it says something to me about his personality. I think real relationships are symbiotic, and I suspect perhaps you see this in the dynamic but aren't articulating it here.
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I think the point was God doesn't want forced obedience or automatons but real, genuine worship and appreciation. I call it an attitude or grattitude. You are right, I probably didn't articulate it well.

acceptance said:
Was it really a sin, was it really evil?
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It was a command. Violation of God's commands is the most basic form of sin/evil. He gave them full run of the garden, save for one tree. Seems pretty lenient to my mind.

acceptance said:
And I agree with Christian apologists that without God there is no objective morality. Even Christians disagree about what is right or wrong though, and they're supposed to have the Holy Spirit.
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I think you meant absolute morality, not objective morality. And what constitutes a "christian" to the average non-christian today, or even another christian, is highly variable. That is why we have orthodox churches in communion with each other, yet separate. There is no innovation allowed when it comes to core tenets.

acceptance said:
As I've mentioned, there are noble and worthy attributes that could be attributed to Lucifer, and Jesus too for that matter.
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I'm going to disagree with you there. There is nothing worthy or noble about Lucifer. He was foremost among the heavenly beings, in charge of all the music. Pride was his sin. When judgment day happens he will be the prosecuting attorney. Satan means "accuser".
 
VonBonfire said:
"ye shall become as gods..." Seems like God wouldn't appreciate anyone trying to take his job away.


He was looking out for their best interests. The Lord walked in the garden where they existed during the breezy time of day.


I think the point was God doesn't want forced obedience or automatons but real, genuine worship and appreciation. I call it an attitude or grattitude. You are right, I probably didn't articulate it well.


It was a command. Violation of God's commands is the most basic form of sin/evil. He gave them full run of the garden, save for one tree. Seems pretty lenient to my mind.


I think you meant absolute morality, not objective morality. And what constitutes a "christian" to the average non-christian today, or even another christian, is highly variable. That is why we have orthodox churches in communion with each other, yet separate. There is no innovation allowed when it comes to core tenets.


I'm going to disagree with you there. There is nothing worthy or noble about Lucifer. He was foremost among the heavenly beings, in charge of all the music. Pride was his sin. When judgment day happens he will be the prosecuting attorney. Satan means "accuser".
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I did mean objective morality, as opposed to subjective. What do you mean by absolute? I didn't realize that Lucifer was in charge of music (Of all things)! Where do you get that from? I don't know that pride is necessarily a bad thing, but surely it can be pathological. As for the rest, it's subjective IMO. You read the bible and interpret it according to your views, or the orthodox church's view, and another christian will do the same. Likewise I read it and understand it differently. I know you believe the Orthodox Church's interpretation is correct in an absolute sense, but I just don't see it that way, and hopefully you can appreciate that the whole matter is not as easy as the simple logic of 2 + 2 = 4, for example.
 
acceptance said:
I did mean objective morality, as opposed to subjective. What do you mean by absolute?
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I dunno, I guess I might've meant objective. I was thinking objective was subjective so I got a little confused. I guess what I meant was cut and dried, non debatable, not open to interpretation by humans.
acceptance said:
I didn't realize that Lucifer was in charge of music (Of all things)! Where do you get that from?
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Ezekiel 28 13

"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created."

Worship in heaven is liturgical, everything is sung. This is why the divine liturgy in orthodoxy is all singing. Even the gospel reading is sung. Only the sermon is spoken and unlike your average protestant church where the sermon can last 45 minutes or an hour or more, an orthodox sermon is generally about five minutes, but that is really up to the priest giving it. Overall though, and orthodox sunay is longer lasting than a protestant service because liturgical worship rather than talking is the focus, with holy communion being the central feature.

acceptance said:
You read the bible and interpret it according to your views, or the orthodox church's view, and another christian will do the same. Likewise I read it and understand it differently. I know you believe the Orthodox Church's interpretation is correct in an absolute sense, but I just don't see it that way, and hopefully you can appreciate that the whole matter is not as easy as the simple logic of 2 + 2 = 4, for example.
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The orthodox Bishops run in an unbroken chain since the apostles, through the laying on of hands, and the apostles walked with Christ and received direct instruction from him. In protestantism one church believes on way, another church believes another, each person reads the bible and makes their own interpretation, which is what you said you do. Another reason I hold protestantism in disdain. In orthodoxy it's all be laid out in canon law. Cut and dried. Any discrepancies are decided by ecumenical councils, a gathering of many bishops, where dogma and forumula is determined. Those are very infrequent, and usually called to deal with heretical ideas that gain popularity through individual bishops within the church. Nestorious for example So it is that simple. Other forms of christianity are purely speculative, or borrow from different denominations as it suits them. Orthodoxy does not.
 
acceptance said:
If that’s the case his musical tastes have gone to hell. 🤔
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The goal is destroying everything beautiful that reflects godliness. Eventually his plan is to remove or destroy any listenable music entirely because music brings joy to mankind and he hates mankind.
 
VonBonfire said:
The goal is destroying everything beautiful that reflects godliness. Eventually his plan is to remove or destroy any listenable music entirely because music brings joy to mankind and he hates mankind.
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I was joking really, as musical taste is personal. So is beauty. As I was telling Arch I like dark aesthetics. You probably don’t. I’m probably in a small minority on this board even for music I’m into. But whatI was getting at is I didn’t think popular music sucked from the 60’s-90’s and probably before. I’m kind of with Lucifer about humankind, have to admit. But individuals I like.
 
acceptance said:
As I was telling Arch I like dark aesthetics. You probably don’t.
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There are a lot of albums I can't listen to anymore because of dark aesthetics. Not necessarily evil or wrong, just dark. The world is dark enough as it is so I don't like adding to it in my personal listening time. I like upbeat stuff and stuff that inspires awe and joy.

acceptance said:
I didn’t think popular music sucked from the 60’s-90’s and probably before.
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i like a lot of doo wop and 50's stuff for the reasons I mentioned above.

acceptance said:
I’m kind of with Lucifer about humankind, have to admit. But individuals I like.
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I get it, I do, but my faith requires more than only loving people who I personally get along with and like. We've had this discussion before in PM's I think.
 
VonBonfire said:
There are a lot of albums I can't listen to anymore because of dark aesthetics. Not necessarily evil or wrong, just dark. The world is dark enough as it is so I don't like adding to it in my personal listening time. I like upbeat stuff and stuff that inspires awe and joy.


i like a lot of doo wop and 50's stuff for the reasons I mentioned above.


I get it, I do, but my faith requires more than only loving people who I personally get along with and like. We've had this discussion before in PM's I think.
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I was going through a old hard drive full of music and I found this Christian band I used to listen to


 
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