anomaly
Well-known member
Hah, I thought the Mark V 35 sat in the mix really good to be honest, better than a couple of the amps that came after it, maybe all of them?? As far as cabs, the OS slant had the most cut.
Hah, I thought the Mark V 35 sat in the mix really good to be honest, better than a couple of the amps that came after it, maybe all of them?? As far as cabs, the OS slant had the most cut.
DanTravis62
Moderator
It's about headroom, not volume for metal bands who want tight low end and a drummer who knows what the fuck he's doing
Why is this so fucking hard for people to understand?
Why is this so fucking hard for people to understand?
thegame
Well-known member
I think much of the perceived "need" to crank tube amps is not so much intended power stage distortion but it's resulting from a relative absence of percussive low end thump at lower volumes. Sometimes in situations where you can't hear yourself that well with a band, a nice percussive tight thump helps with feeling your way through the song in a sense. In many cases a higher wattage amp with a decent master volume circuit can achieve fuller and thicker tones at a lower volume than straining a lower wattage amp by cranking it in a vain effort to fill out the bottom end.
GJgo
Well-known member
The MkIII was KDRG / Simul, it couldn't hang so I sold it. It was noticeably less powerful (and less toneful) than the MkII KRGs.
Some guys like a thinner sound like with the little 35- and that's fine if that's what works for them. I just think it's important to be honest / realistic about what you're actually trying to accomplish. Lower wattage amps & higher wattage amps don't do the same thing. Same with smaller cabs vs. bigger cabs.
thegame
Well-known member
The MK-5 35 sounds like a mosquito compared to the others.
DanTravis62
Moderator
I think alot of this is blues, indie rock, classic rock type players simply not understanding how hard the drums need to be hit to sound right in a metal/punk/hardcore context
Which correlates with how much headroom is needed to keep things from sounding like mush when the whole band is fast and loud
LPMojoGL
Well-known member
Never, but they sound better at lower volumes than low watt amps do. At least master volume amps do.
That said, playing thru a cranked 2203, super lead, dual rec, or slo is an experience you remember. You feel it in your body. Literally.
LPMojoGL
Well-known member
Was gonna mention the Bassman. A cranked bassman hit with a tube screamer, going thru a 4x12 loaded with GBs is FN RnR. That would be my rig if I could play at those volumes. Glorious.
japetus
Moderator
I don't use GB's but everything else you described is my rig! I love it.
LPMojoGL
Well-known member
Greazygeo
Well-known member
Maybe if they changed the heads and tuned them once a decade they wouldn’t need to crush them. ?
I get what you are saying though, but glad I don’t have to play with “metal” drummers anymore.
japetus
Moderator
I use some of the old g12-75's in an early 90s Lee Jackson era cab with a 74 Silverface bassman. I have been using an 808 clone gifted to me by Griff from here (killer pedal).
DanTravis62
Moderator
Every competent metal drummer I've played with changed and tuned their kit a whole hell of a lot more than the jazz cats, lol
Heavy music....It's literally all rimshots on the snare. You literally cannot do this with even "moderate" force and make it sound like 'metal.' Or modern punk and hardcore, for that matter.
If the drums have to be hit that hard, and are that loud, then the guitarists need the headroom to balance everything, unless you want to sound like a mess.
That's why metal players always laugh at the "hurr durr why do you need 100 watts" posts ?
anomaly
Well-known member
Couldn't hang, at a 150 watts, lol. You'd think a simulclass coliseum would have a more 3D kinda sound due to the power section, or at least some extra harmonic content at band volumes??
I just thought the V 35 sat in the mix really well vs the older Marks that kinda sounded like they were missing some high frequencies in the mix, and the rectos had this high end fizz character that was clashing with the cymbals a lot. I thought the dual and triple sounded about equal, and the coliseum honestly didn't sound much bigger than the 60 watt.
I think when your in a mix like that with the bass pumping having over 100 watts becomes rather insignificant tone wise. You're just hearing the midrange and treble in the mix when a proper bass rig is pumping anyways. I think you usually need at least 50 watts in most situations though.
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anomaly
Well-known member
One of my first tube heads was a 64 or 65 Fender Bassman. It needed a boost, or better yet two boosts but it sounded pretty damn cool.
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anomaly
Well-known member
With high gain amps I call the half way point cranked cause they sound like shit turned up more than 5 or 6, at least on most high gain amps. I find the sweet spot on most high gain amps to be around 3 or 4 (out of 10). That's still plenty loud.
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GJgo
Well-known member
Through the journey I've just learned that I don't like triode- at all- for metal. I want the full pentode punch. I've also learned that I'm not a Mark III guy, they sound like they have a blanket over them after coming from Mark IIs. Also, Simul or not, the Mk III Coli power sections are not as beefy as the MkII Coli power sections. The filtering is different but more importantly the II Coli power sections have 0 negative feedback.
For me personally in my 3 piece, I want huge amp girth that fills the room with unquestionable punch & clarity. With so many amps they sound killer at home, or even with the band in the garage, but when you play a big open space all the thickness of the tone just disappears. I remember the first time I gigged my Triple Recto I was like "what the fuck is happening here there's no balls in this room?!?!" The only two amps I've personally experienced that brought "fuck yeah" girth & tone to a big room were the MkII KRG and a SLO. The SLO wasn't metal enough for me, so the KRG it is. All other amps have been rehomed.
To be fair I never gigged the Wizard MTL, but (while it was huge) I thought the gain structure sucked so it didn't stick around that long.
anomaly
Well-known member
Ya, some of those Mesa 50 watters don't seem to actually put out 50 watts. I had a .50 caliber + that had these tiny little transformers on it and volume wise it barely held up with a decent hitting drummer, so I swear the amp put closer to about 30 watts out in reality. I think that's why Pepper of COC had his modded and ran two when playing live. Next to a 60 watter or 75 watt simulclass Mark series Mesa, it wasn't even close power wise. Those have a much more formidable output section.
anomaly
Well-known member
Ya, I'm not really a Mark III guy myself either and prefer pentode. It's not so much that a Mark III has that blanketed sound it's that it's very hard to dial them bright enough without them getting harsh I think?? So I would always end up dialing them dark to not kill my ears. That said, I've played some outdoor gigs with my old mark III and with a decent 4x12 it was plenty fat enough sounding for the job. After watching your vids i think your Bassist needs to upgrade his rig, it doesn't have enough balls to it to keep up with a decent half stack guitar rig IMO.
Also, have you ever tried running a second 4x12? and you need to play places that have a decent PA so you don't need to fill the room with your amp alone. If a triple rectifier ain't getting the job done you've gotta reconsider what the problem is... I mean Cannible Corpse use triple and dual rectifiers and their sound is brutal to say the least.
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