Metallica’s Rigs 2023 tour

[Brandonrz]

Metallica hasn’t released an album I’ve really enjoyed for decades now… so when I’m at their shows I’m there for the few old songs I enjoy that they’ll play and to have a good time.

Also, confirmation bias is a mfer we’re all guilty of. If these bands didn’t showcase they were digital we’d have NO idea. And I’m a total tube amp nerd and only use digital stuff during tracking DIs for people.

 

[VESmedic]

You could frame these threads as "the digital guys can't resist defending digital."

I could just as easily frame these threads as "the anti-modeling crowd can't resist trash talking modeling at every opportunity, no matter what the tone actually might or might not sound like."

All you anti-modeling guys need is the simple knowledge that a band is using modelers and you'll shout to the heavens about how terrible you just know the tone will be. You don't even need to hear the band first. Modeling is the ONLY reason the tone could possibly be bad, right? But if a band is using tube amps and has bad tone, well hang on just a minute, we have to look at the guitar, the pickups, the cab, the mic, the mix, the venue, the strings, and the player to know what the REAL problem is.

The digital guys aren't necessarily "defending modeling" in these threads so much as calling out the blind mis-attribution bullshit.

THANK YOU, I feel like this place is talking to a wall sometimes. I’m glad someone gets what myself and others are trying to say. Just calling out the bullshit here, as always.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

THANK YOU, I feel like this place is talking to a wall sometimes. I’m glad someone gets what myself and others are trying to say. Just calling out the bullshit here, as always.

Yeah man, I get that digital tech started out rough but things have changed. I'm sitting here in a room with over a dozen tube amps I love and I'll tell anybody that the Axe-Fx's modeling can sit next to anything. Is it *identical* to my tube amps? No. But... played in the same format as a good tube amp (listening through monitors, amps and cab, etc), does the modeling these days sound and feel just as good, just as inspiring as a good tube amp? Yep. With some particularly good amp models, if I spent the time dialing them in, could I be fooled in a double blind test? Yep. It's happened several times. I'll often do this, clicking back and fourth between a real amp and a switcher, and after a few minutes of noodling I'll forget whether I'm playing the amp or the modeler and have to look at the patch to check.

I don't know if it's because people just haven't been exposed to the best stuff or if they don't understand the difference between cabs in the room vs listening on monitors or if they just hear that there's a learning curve and get scared off or what, but damn there's an insane stigma against modeling that imo is completely unwarranted these days.

It bothers me because other guitar players obsessed with their sound but who really don't know will read this stuff and be convinced that modeling is just some dead end road non-starter thing, that being truly inspired by tone, or even just being able to get more than one good tone, requires some insane cost of entry, that only the most expensive tube rigs can bring the magic, but that's just not true.

 

[MetalThrasher]

I've said this before... Metallica got me into playing guitar so I will and always respect them! However, I've always thought that they sucked live and I'm going back to the mid 90's.

 

[rsm]

You could frame these threads as "the digital guys can't resist defending digital."

I could just as easily frame these threads as "the anti-modeling crowd can't resist trash talking modeling at every opportunity, no matter what the tone actually might or might not sound like."

All you anti-modeling guys need is the simple knowledge that a band is using modelers and you'll shout to the heavens about how terrible you just know the tone will be. You don't even need to hear the band first, but that doesn't stop you from thinking and telling everybody else that modeling is the ONLY reason the tone could possibly be bad, right? On the other hand, if you hear that a band is using tube amps and has bad tone, well hang on just a minute, we have to look at the guitar, the pickups, the strings, the cab, the mic, the mix, the PA, the sound engineer, the acoustics of the venue, and the player to know what the REAL problem is.

The digital guys aren't necessarily "defending modeling" in these threads so much as calling out the blind mis-attribution bullshit made by people who themselves don't have the experience to actually know what they're talking about.

c'mon man, I dig my digital gear... in the loop of my tube amps!


Actually, use a Source Audio EQ2 in front of my tube amps or nothing; I'm very happy with my software plugins for guitar too. But I'm older, and tube amps just have a presence in the room I enjoy, so does my solid state Randall RG1503-212.

 

[angelspade]

Ok, I'll chime in here, why not. The truth is that yes...James has had better guitar sounds over the years by comparison to his current tone. That includes his current live sound, as well as his recorded tones on "72 Seasons" which is dominated by an older Jose mod Marshall. As many have commented, his tastes have simply changed over the years as he has gotten older (as many of us have). Less gain (72 Seasons is way under-gained), more upper-mids and perhaps a little splatty in the low end (EMG Het bridge pickup doesn't help here) seem to characterize his current sound. While I prefer tube amps personally, I don't blame modeling technology for this. I blame choices, both Metallica and their producer (Greg Fidelman) are responsible. Many of us strongly prefer his early boosted, heavily reverbed Marshall tones. While some believe he peaked with "that" layered Mesa Mark Bob Rock sound on the Black Album with it's incredible low-mid weight and crisp top end. This is an unpopular point of view, but for me, there was period after both of those eras where he brought in the Wizard Modern Classic and the Diezel VH4 along with the Mesa gear that I felt he really got it right. When I listed to parts of the Load records, Garage Inc. (unbelievably good sounding record from all angles) and certain tones on Magnetic, and even some spots on Anger, I hear aggression, lots of attack, clarity and a great upper-mid character. He was still employing plenty of gain, but it seemed considerably less saturated which highlighted the amazing nuances in his playing. This video (very beginning and very end) is a live sound that embodies what I am describing. It's very present and cutting, yet has warmth, thickness and character:

.

In my way of thinking, James started to drift into a more safe and pedestrian lane with Hardwired, and it got worse on 72 Seasons. A combination of a Mesa Mark, Wizard and Diezel (along with Bob or Flemming), and he would be back in business. The playing and the attitude are still there, and James is still the man after all these years. Just my thoughts.

 

[RaceU4her]

cant wait for rick beatos interview with hammett

 

[dawnofdreamx97]

Chiming in , was sad to hear Big Mick Hughes has retired..... greg price is now driving the ship now, new FOH engineer for a while now, since covid , was bummed to learn this the other night at metlife!

 

[tallcoolone]

tube amps just have a presence in the room I enjoy

Nothing wrong with this. If volume and/or space isn’t an issue it’s tough to deny the visceral experience of a great amp through a great cab. Pretty much why I’m surrounded with great amps and cabs and no modelers right now. But to insinuate that you can discern one from the other at a festival show is pretty crazy. I’d bet money someone couldn’t do this in a small controlled environment—never mind from the cheap seats at the Enormodome.

 

[Philhouse]

I wonder how much of the idea to go Fractal was even James.
He seems pretty pragmatic about his amps. If it sounds good then generally stick with it. Marshall, Mesa, Diezel, Wizard over time. Anything else is usually only peripheral studio use in searching for that extra spice. He doesn't seem to be the kind to constantly tone search. I would bet apart from his Marshalls being stolen and him starting anew, he was mostly exposed to these different amps by friends or producers and he ended up bonding with them, rather than chasing endless avenues. Get a kick arse sound from an amp and just get on with writing songs and touring.

Did Fractal woo him and the team over into switching? He's a huge score for their brand for sure.
Their justification that it's more cost effective for touring doesn't wash for me either. How about taking one less of the fkn huge jumbo screens or reducing a small part of the elaborate stage to offset the cost of shipping a couple of extra containers of amp gear? It's not the pissy cost of shipping around some amp heads. If they were tight on money then the stages and screens wouldn't keep increasing each tour.
The reason people go to a concert is for the band and the music, that should be the priority, not the 6th 100ft screen or frikken black beach balls (wtf was with that shit anyway). Get the guys in best shape for performing and make them sound great, the rest of the show is just for girlfriends in the crowd.

 

[DrewJD82]

I wonder how much of the idea to go Fractal was even James.
He seems pretty pragmatic about his amps. If it sounds good then generally stick with it. Marshall, Mesa, Diezel, Wizard over time. Anything else is usually only peripheral studio use in searching for that extra spice. He doesn't seem to be the kind to constantly tone search. I would bet apart from his Marshalls being stolen and him starting anew, he was mostly exposed to these different amps by friends or producers and he ended up bonding with them, rather than chasing endless avenues. Get a kick arse sound from an amp and just get on with writing songs and touring.

Did Fractal woo him and the team over into switching? He's a huge score for their brand for sure.
Their justification that it's more cost effective for touring doesn't wash for me either. How about taking one less of the fkn huge jumbo screens or reducing a small part of the elaborate stage to offset the cost of shipping a couple of extra containers of amp gear? It's not the pissy cost of shipping around some amp heads. If they were tight on money then the stages and screens wouldn't keep increasing each tour.
The reason people go to a concert is for the band and the music, that should be the priority, not the 6th 100ft screen or frikken black beach balls (wtf was with that shit anyway). Get the guys in best shape for performing and make them sound great, the rest of the show is just for girlfriends in the crowd.

They got the Fractal units when they played in Antarctica, were happy with them and kept using them. I‘d imagine shipping costs is fairly small on their list of concerns in the grand scheme of things, they don’t cheap out on anything. Looking at that stage, it’s lined with a shitload of Meyer monitors that are probably $6K a piece…..and they’re still using in-ears.

 

[Philhouse]

They got the Fractal units when they played in Antarctica, were happy with them and kept using them. I‘d imagine shipping costs is fairly small on their list of concerns in the grand scheme of things, they don’t cheap out on anything. Looking at that stage, it’s lined with a shitload of Meyer monitors that are probably $6K a piece…..and they’re still using in-ears.

Yeah true. I recall now that the main reason now is for the consistency and ease aspect they provide according to the guys.
Consistently crap live tone. Then again when was the last time their live tone was great? Justice or Puppets tour perhaps?
Can't think of where I'd read about the cargo cost ws now. too tired. anyway

 

[Les Zombie]

The guitar tones was horrible when i saw them in central park nyc last year, metlife this weekend was better tone than central park, the 40th anniversary shows the tone was better than both shows i just mentioned but it was indoors, ive seen metallica alot over the years and im gonna see them again in a couple weeks at the los angeles shows, i still have fun seeing them and i try to go to as many shows as i can, even though i dont love the guitar tones these days i still love the songs and watching them live.

 

[VESmedic]

They got the Fractal units when they played in Antarctica, were happy with them and kept using them. I‘d imagine shipping costs is fairly small on their list of concerns in the grand scheme of things, they don’t cheap out on anything. Looking at that stage, it’s lined with a shitload of Meyer monitors that are probably $6K a piece…..and they’re still using in-ears.

Each one of those meyer panthers on their line array (288 of them!!!!) are 20k a piece…..

 

[cragginshred]

Yep. Saw them way back in 88 on the Monsters of Rock tour. Sounded amazing, to me anyway.

I did too, Candlestick park SF epic show. All you have to do is listen to the footage from that tour and now and it's way different in a bad way for the current tones.

 

[cragginshred]

James and Kirk both have two 4x12’s onstage they can walk up to for feedback and shit. Kinda funny, they never had live cabs onstage until they went Fractal. Big Mick talks about the effort they went into over the years to get the guitar tones consistent and why they ended up on Fractal here.



I remember getting the Stunning Cunts VHS back in high school and not digging the tones because they were more midrangey and didn’t have nearly as much distortion as I was expecting, listening now it brought me right back to 1997 when I brought that VHS home-


I know when I saw them in Boston in ‘08 I couldn’t make out the guitars for shit, it was a wash of midrange and I was only one floor up from the actual floor of the Garden, sometimes ya just get a shitty spot in the venue. I’ve seen Tool at the same joint 2 different times, first time fucking sucked and the 2nd time it sounded perfect. I think the only dude I’ve never heard sound off live, regardless of the venue/PA, was Jerry Cantrell and I’m guessing because I’ve only been in good spots when I’ve seen him. Standing at FOH at the Tsongas arena was something else, they broke into “God Am” and I almost shit a literal brick from the guitar tone alone.

The 1st vid is insightful with the comments about the power at some venues and how he thinks it is very close despite the vast majority of us who know what tube amps sound like and how could their tone used to be.

 

[gtrwun]

You could frame these threads as "the digital guys can't resist defending digital."

I could just as easily frame these threads as "the anti-modeling crowd can't resist trash talking modeling at every opportunity, no matter what the tone actually might or might not sound like."

All you anti-modeling guys need is the simple knowledge that a band is using modelers and you'll shout to the heavens about how terrible you just know the tone will be. You don't even need to hear the band first, but that doesn't stop you from thinking and telling everybody else that modeling is the ONLY reason the tone could possibly be bad, right? On the other hand, if you hear that a band is using tube amps and has bad tone, well hang on just a minute, we have to look at the guitar, the pickups, the strings, the cab, the mic, the mix, the PA, the sound engineer, the acoustics of the venue, and the player to know what the REAL problem is.

The digital guys aren't necessarily "defending modeling" in these threads so much as calling out the blind mis-attribution bullshit made by people who themselves don't have the experience to actually know what they're talking about.

Yeah, sure.
There are SO MANY people that don’t know what they are talking about on this forum?????

You sound exactly like one of these overly political nimtards that shouts their opinion 24-7 to anyone that will listen……..insisting that ANYONE who doesn’t agree with them, surely doesn’t know shit from shineola.

I personally could care less about what technology or amps anyone uses. It either sounds good or it doesn’t.

 

[Racerxrated]

I saw one show that I was super impressed with the AXE tones; a local club had Threat Signal in for a quick show. My old drummer was a fan, and a huge metal guy so I went with him. His wife not so much lol. They had KILLER tone, so I know it CAN be done. Both players told me they each had a nice collection of C+ at home, and the AXE got close enough so they left the tubes at home. Not sure of their power/cab scenario though. This was back in 2014.

 

[TheGreatGreen]

Yeah, sure.
There are SO MANY people that don’t know what they are talking about on this forum?????

It certainly looks that way sometimes, yes.

You sound exactly like one of these overly political nimtards that shouts their opinion 24-7 to anyone that will listen……..insisting that ANYONE who doesn’t agree with them, surely doesn’t know shit from shineola.

I personally could care less about what technology or amps anyone uses. It either sounds good or it doesn’t.

lol, and you sound like one of those people who throws tantrums and personal insults at people the minute they disagree with you. Newsflash: this is a guitar forum. People talk about their opinions of guitar stuff here.

One of my opinions is that anybody who instantly dismisses the best amp modeling tech available as "flat out always bad sounding and unworthy of consideration, always worse than tube amps in every way" doesn't know what they're talking about. I have the first hand experience to know for myself, otherwise I wouldn't say it.

 

[gtrwun]

It certainly looks that way sometimes, yes.



lol, and you sound like one of those people who throws tantrums and personal insults at people the minute they disagree with you. Newsflash: this is a guitar forum. People talk about their opinions of guitar stuff here.

One of my opinions is that anybody who instantly dismisses the best amp modeling tech available as "flat out always bad sounding and unworthy of consideration, always worse than tube amps in every way" doesn't know what they're talking about. I have the first hand experience to know for myself, otherwise I wouldn't say it.

NEWSFLASH…..

I couldn’t care less if we disagree.
Your the simpleton that had to respond to my post about the digital police defending the tech. I didn’t single you, or anyone else out.

If you think this is me having a tantrum, your grossly misinterpreting the tone of my words. Maybe your projecting your own feelings upon my text?