7704A
Well-known member
Why not?
H
Holy-diver
Well-known member
I stand by my original statement: retarded.
BlueParfait
Well-known member
Because there's no such thing as a feasible, completely scientific test on this topic rofl
First, you have to find a way to measure difference in timbre. This is already next to impossible and require you to make assumptions
Then you have to find a way to produce the same sound exactly each time. The strings must be plucked at the exact same spot, the exact same amplitude, every time
Then you also have to find a way to keep every variable equal while changing only the wood. This means the strings must be the same, the setup the exact same, the pickup height the exact same down to a micron,
Most guitars and setups do not allow this, so you will have to use specialized, or a very novel inventions in order to try it.
All the "scientific" tests people perform on YouTube and TikTok aren't even close to being scientific. They appear to follow the scientific method, and that's about it.
pipelineaudio
Member
First you need to demonstrate that they sound different.
Why without an o-scope? Would you measure lifter length without a measuring tool? Would you measure dpotentially deadly drugs without a measuring tool before you take them? What sort of insane world do you want to live in where you wouldn't use the proper tools to do a task? Are you somehow cooler if you just eyeball it?
The father of modern epistemology gave the example of needing to replace a screen door. He would have to know what size of a door to get. He could use a tape measure, or he could ask his dog. ONE of these is a reliable pathway to truth. The other is just stupid
pipelineaudio
Member
Not to be a spoiler, but I bet there will be no evidence forthcoming for this claim
pipelineaudio
Member
I just realized I replied to that video the day it came out.
He's claiming different species sound different. This cannot POSSIBLY be true, it is dendrochronology denial
pipelineaudio
Member
I appreciate when people admit they are immune to reason. A lot of chickens hide behind god of the gaps arguments, but some are brave and honest enough to just admit it and stand behind it. Its a lot easier to deal with people who are honest.
pipelineaudio
Member
Of course there is. And it has been done and established many of the principles we use in manufacturing today in many fields, especially telecommunications
Something we can do to an astonishing degree, and we can do very easily with products you probably already have around the home
That used to seem like a tricky thing, but people have found many ways around this into overlapping error ranges
Correct, and this is where things like the warmoth video really epic fail. But its certainly not impossible and has to be done in other fields when it comes to high tolerance applications like mechanical hard drives. At 10,000 RPM, harmonic tolerances need to be incredibly tight
Yup, and that's where it seems to be where the dumdums give up and say things must sound different, while the truth seekers figure out a way to test it
We don't even need the scientific method, we just need some evidence. So far all the evidence lands on one side of the pile
pipelineaudio
Member
There used to be a debate that DAWs that nulled each other's outputs somehow sounded different. There was a lot of overlap among the people who believed that and tonewood believers and magical mic preamp believers. Because of quantum mechanics, real world measurements will always have noise, but at what level difference do people think they can discern a difference? Certainly not 120 dB down right?
BlueParfait
Well-known member
- Of course there is. And it has been done and established many of the principles we use in manufacturing today in many fields, especially telecommunications
[Citation Needed] - Something we can do to an astonishing degree, and we can do very easily with products you probably already have around the home
Please do elaborate.
- That used to seem like a tricky thing, but people have found many ways around this into overlapping error ranges
[Citation Needed]
- Yup, and that's where it seems to be where the dumdums give up and say things must sound different, while the truth seekers figure out a way to test it
See also: the flat earthers who "proved" the Earth can't be rotating using a car and a drone.
- We don't even need the scientific method, we just need some evidence. So far all the evidence lands on one side of the pile
Without using examples that would get me banned, sufficed to say I can also find evidence lacking or unconvincing based on the above.
SpiderWars
Well-known member
The thing about all the scientific evidence is that it doesn’t agree with my ears/experience. I’m an engineer so I tend to trust the science more than some but my ears just keep pummeling my brain with a different answer.
Maybe it’s from playing acoustic guitars that are otherwise built identical but one model has Mahogany back and sides and the other has Rosewood. There are tonal properties that are consistent when switching from one to the other. Consistent among brands, consistent among other models, etc. I don’t think any amount of science would convince me I’m not hearing that.
Does it then not apply to hollow body electrics?
Does it then not apply to semi-hollow body electrics?
Or is it only solid body electrics where it then magically stops making a difference?
What about thin lines?
Maybe it’s from playing acoustic guitars that are otherwise built identical but one model has Mahogany back and sides and the other has Rosewood. There are tonal properties that are consistent when switching from one to the other. Consistent among brands, consistent among other models, etc. I don’t think any amount of science would convince me I’m not hearing that.
Does it then not apply to hollow body electrics?
Does it then not apply to semi-hollow body electrics?
Or is it only solid body electrics where it then magically stops making a difference?
What about thin lines?
Floyd Eye
Well-known member
I don’t think it doesn’t affect tone. I just think any effect it has isn’t perceptible when you’re plugging it into an amp. Believing it does is kinda like believing in voodoo. Or ghosts.
rsm
Well-known member
JohnnyGtar
Well-known member
Oh, I do, bro. Every basswood bodied bolt on guitar I've ever played that has a locking trem has a spongy, soft attack, compared to guitars with hardwood bodies and I say that as someone in their 60's who's been playing shredsticks for over 4 decades.
Floyd Eye
Well-known member
Dude, I’m 57 and I got my first electric bass when I was 8. I started gigging in bars when I was 15.
Your ears lie Johnny.
JohnnyGtar
Well-known member
Over 40 years of personal experience. I don't need to prove it to anyone else. Why would I? I don't care!
Drum shells, man. Now there's a rabbit hole.
JohnnyGtar
Well-known member
rsm
Well-known member
spongy, soft attack = tone?
BlueParfait
Well-known member
Addendum:
These heuristics never failed me in other matters, so I suspect they also hold here.
- Does it seem to go against tradition for the main reason of """SCIENCE""" ? [Theoretically: something whose understanding of can change wildly by the decades. See also: understanding of dinosaurs] [Realistically: something heavily influenced by establishment dogma. See also: archaeology, biology]
- Does it seem to benefit no one except people who can reduce costs of production, service, or overheads, giving you lower quality for higher margins?
- Does it seem to reduce quality of service or of life for the average person?
If the answer is yes, it might as well be bullshit.
Decades ago, nobody held beliefs like "the materials and construction don't matter". Literally nobody up until recently held beliefs like "the pickups don't matter". Even a few years ago, people who say the wood didn't matter would say "pickups matter"
And the goalposts for this is always moveable. If you say you hear a difference, they call you a liar. If you show that there's a difference analyzing the frequencies, they say "oh this all disappears in the mix"
They will also say some bullshit like "oh but companies have incentives to say there's a difference to market that difference". Nobody who has ever worked in a corporation that creates or sells products or services would ever say this because we know customer segmentation exists, market mix exists. And the small demographic who are swayed by marketing of "this is different from this" will be swayed by any marketing that lets them set them apart from "other people", and they usually have more money anyways but that's a different story.
This is a zero sum fake-and-gay argument that in the end serves nothing but to reduce the average person into accepting shittier and shittier things in their lives.
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cobrahead1030
Well-known member
Because it’s a subject that’s fun to talk about & hear people’s experience or perception…
Until it becomes a debate about who’s correct, then the conversation gets boring & goes nowhere.