Why Wood Matters | Rules of Tone: Episode 1 | PRS Guitars

[TheBiggestJerk]

No sir. It is not a sine wave created by the strings.

The strings pass vibrations to the body which, in turn, the body sends some of those vibrations back.

Some of these interactions may raise certain aspects of the tone or even cancel some out.

were you born retarded or did your uncle-dad drop you on head as an infant?

Do a simple google search.

 

[dead-pan]

were you born retarded or did your uncle-dad drop you on head as an infant?

Do a simple google search. View attachment 408905

Haha, why don't you ask it if a guitar produces a sign wave?

 

[TheBiggestJerk]

Haha, why don't you ask it if a guitar produces a sign wave?

Why don’t you show yourself out you illiterate troll.

 

[DanTravis62]

Why don’t you show yourself out you illiterate troll.

Really making yourself look like a font of knowledge biggestcuck

 

[7704A]

were you born retarded or did your uncle-dad drop you on head as an infant?

Do a simple google search. View attachment 408905

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourier_analysis

Also I prefer gorilla glue over elmers for holding cheese to my pizza.

 

[rstites]

Absolutely it’s a sine wave with both terminus at y=0.

It is not a sine wave. It is multiple sine waves that form a standing wave. The intensity of those sine waves relative to each other is what creates the tone quality, or basically the timbre in musical terms - what we hear as opposed to what actually exists physically. (They're close, but not identical. Just like pitch and fundamental frequency are not identical, but close.)

The tone quality is affected by the construction of the string and what it's attached to, as well as acoustic reflections of nearby objects. The details (lattice structure of cured wood) of the wood's internal structure will affect the tone quality, and hence timbre of the instrument. (This isn't unique to guitars. The specific materials in a brass instrument will affect it, for example.) The species of wood will definitely affect it's properties for sustaining and supporting standing waves and the intensity of them. Obviously, there will be a range for organic material, but one wood species can be distinguished from another readily.

It's clear with a basic understanding of physics that different wood species will produce different tone quality, or timbre, or what we normally simply refer to as tone in the guitar world. It's reasonable to discuss the extent to which it contributes to the overall sound of a specific instrument, compared to all other factors, but it is absolutely incorrect to suggestion the wood has no affect on the tonal qualities of a vibrating string. Really, everything contributes to some extent.

Also, note that an analysis of standing waves only works for steady-state and does not consider the transients when the vibration is initiated - when the string is plucked.

 

[rstites]

While I appreciate your tenacity, this just isn’t something you discover from reading a book. I’ve owned well over a hundred bolt on guitars—I know how they should sustain and, alternatively, ring when played acoustically. In my experience you can usually tell whether a guitar is a good one by playing it unplugged. A good piece of wood will vibrate—I can literally feel it in my balls when I strum a chord (I wear the guitar low lol). The guitars that don’t do this don’t sustain as well. Which is why I said earlier you can mask some of this with a pickup change but in the end a dead piece of wood is just a dead piece of wood. Yes, a couple times I went through the hassle of trying a different neck on the rejected bodies—no improvement. So yeah I sell them and cut my losses.

I’m not dealing with used necks and bodies here—these are CNC cut brand new pieces that fit perfectly. If they didn’t I wouldn’t accept them.

This is my general experience too. I frequently practice unplugged late at night. Some guitars ring out and others don't, and that translates fairly well to how they sound plugged in too. The basis of the sound unplugged is what's going to get amplified. Sure pickups and amplifier settings affect it, but the fundamental sound is still there.

I'll certainly use different pickups in different guitars because those instruments have different fundamental sounds. (Though I do have one that's throwing me for a loop right now. It sounds great unplugged but several sets of pickups have all sounded a bit dull in it. I suspect it's pots or switch or something simple like that and will probably just gut it and redo it when I get some time.)

 

[DanTravis62]

It is not a sine wave. It is multiple sine waves that form a standing wave. The intensity of those sine waves relative to each other is what creates the tone quality, or basically the timbre in musical terms - what we hear as opposed to what actually exists physically. (They're close, but not identical. Just like pitch and fundamental frequency are not identical, but close.)

The tone quality is affected by the construction of the string and what it's attached too, as well as acoustic reflections of nearby objects. The details (lattice structure of cured wood) of the wood's internal structure will affect the tone quality, and hence timbre of the instrument. (This isn't unique to guitars. The specific materials in a brass instrument will affect it, for example.) The species of wood will definitely affect it's properties for sustaining and supporting standing waves and the intensity of them. Obviously, there will be a range for organic material, but one wood species can be distinguished from another readily.

It's clear with a basic understanding of physics that different wood species will produce different tone quality, or timbre, or what we normally simply refer to as tone in the guitar world. It's reasonable to discuss the extent to which it contributes to the overall sound of a specific instrument, compared to all other factors, but it is absolutely incorrect to suggestion the wood has no affect on the tonal qualities of a vibrating string. Really, everything contributes to some extent.

Also, note that an analysis of standing waves only works for steady-state and does not consider the transients when the vibration is initiated - when the string is plucked.

Interesting, thanks for explaining your take on the physics without calling everyone else retarded for not immediately agreeing with every word that you type

The whole "steady state" vs "over time" thing is a big deal in IRs, too.

 

[JohnnyGtar]

Material density influences the vibration and frequency response.

Different materials reflect and absorb different frequencies of light…. Think about it.

It is not a sine wave. It is multiple sine waves that form a standing wave. The intensity of those sine waves relative to each other is what creates the tone quality, or basically the timbre in musical terms - what we hear as opposed to what actually exists physically. (They're close, but not identical. Just like pitch and fundamental frequency are not identical, but close.)

The tone quality is affected by the construction of the string and what it's attached too, as well as acoustic reflections of nearby objects. The details (lattice structure of cured wood) of the wood's internal structure will affect the tone quality, and hence timbre of the instrument. (This isn't unique to guitars. The specific materials in a brass instrument will affect it, for example.) The species of wood will definitely affect it's properties for sustaining and supporting standing waves and the intensity of them. Obviously, there will be a range for organic material, but one wood species can be distinguished from another readily.

It's clear with a basic understanding of physics that different wood species will produce different tone quality, or timbre, or what we normally simply refer to as tone in the guitar world. It's reasonable to discuss the extent to which it contributes to the overall sound of a specific instrument, compared to all other factors, but it is absolutely incorrect to suggestion the wood has no affect on the tonal qualities of a vibrating string. Really, everything contributes to some extent.

Also, note that an analysis of standing waves only works for steady-state and does not consider the transients when the vibration is initiated - when the string is plucked.

 

[Greazygeo]

No, just that the same tree, not just the same species, but the exact same tree, even the exact same cut of wood can have wildly different hardnesses. These overlap with other species, so there is no way to attribute a tonal characteristic of a species with any specificity. You could pulp different species and perhaps be able to say that pulp of a species tends to average more x or y than the average of a pulp of another species, but that doesn't get you much, certainly not anywhere near the claims people make


Any evidence for this?

That's all that really matters

If you watch the video here, Paul seems to be pretty specific in the woods, cuts, drying etc to get repeatable / consistent pieces to work with. Anderson ( my preference) is the same. No quality maker is going to use every piece of wood from a tree, just what passes their tests. In these cases, it is pretty easy to know what maple sounds like vs whatever. Cedar tops sound different than spruce, mahogany back and sides sound different than maple or rosewood etc. mahogany with a maple top sounds different than without the top…etc etc etc…if they all sound the same to you, that’s great. In a dense mix can they be picked out, maybe, maybe not.

Been playing guitar since 1980. I have had and been around about every popular wood combination. Built many experimenting and know the combinations I generally like for certain things. Don’t feel the need to prove or disprove anything to anyone else.

I have had a few PRS. Very good quality guitars, not a fan of the scale length or how they hang on a strap.

Some of you need to go play some guitars instead of reading about them.

 

[pipelineaudio]

If you watch the video here, Paul seems to be pretty specific in the woods, cuts, drying etc to get repeatable / consistent pieces to work with. Anderson ( my preference) is the same. No quality maker is going to use every piece of wood from a tree, just what passes their tests. In these cases, it is pretty easy to know what maple sounds like vs whatever. Cedar tops sound different than spruce, mahogany back and sides sound different than maple or rosewood etc. mahogany with a maple top sounds different than without the top…etc etc etc…if they all sound the same to you, that’s great. In a dense mix can they be picked out, maybe, maybe not.

So many claims and yet they are never backed up

Been playing guitar since 1980. I have had and been around about every popular wood combination. Built many experimenting and know the combinations I generally like for certain things.

"in my experience" the last three words in fatal epidemiology

Don’t feel the need to prove or disprove anything to anyone else.

and there we go

Some of you need to go play some guitars instead of reading about them.

And some of you need to actually hear enough guitars instead of making baseless claims about them

 

[TheBiggestJerk]

It is not a sine wave. It is multiple sine waves that form a standing wave. The intensity of those sine waves relative to each other is what creates the tone quality, or basically the timbre in musical terms - what we hear as opposed to what actually exists physically. (They're close, but not identical. Just like pitch and fundamental frequency are not identical, but close.)

The tone quality is affected by the construction of the string and what it's attached too, as well as acoustic reflections of nearby objects. The details (lattice structure of cured wood) of the wood's internal structure will affect the tone quality, and hence timbre of the instrument. (This isn't unique to guitars. The specific materials in a brass instrument will affect it, for example.) The species of wood will definitely affect it's properties for sustaining and supporting standing waves and the intensity of them. Obviously, there will be a range for organic material, but one wood species can be distinguished from another readily.

It's clear with a basic understanding of physics that different wood species will produce different tone quality, or timbre, or what we normally simply refer to as tone in the guitar world. It's reasonable to discuss the extent to which it contributes to the overall sound of a specific instrument, compared to all other factors, but it is absolutely incorrect to suggestion the wood has no affect on the tonal qualities of a vibrating string. Really, everything contributes to some extent.

Also, note that an analysis of standing waves only works for steady-state and does not consider the transients when the vibration is initiated - when the string is plucked.

Yes!

 

[dead-pan]

It is not a sine wave. It is multiple sine waves that form a standing wave. The intensity of those sine waves relative to each other is what creates the tone quality, or basically the timbre in musical terms - what we hear as opposed to what actually exists physically. (They're close, but not identical. Just like pitch and fundamental frequency are not identical, but close.)

The tone quality is affected by the construction of the string and what it's attached too, as well as acoustic reflections of nearby objects. The details (lattice structure of cured wood) of the wood's internal structure will affect the tone quality, and hence timbre of the instrument. (This isn't unique to guitars. The specific materials in a brass instrument will affect it, for example.) The species of wood will definitely affect it's properties for sustaining and supporting standing waves and the intensity of them. Obviously, there will be a range for organic material, but one wood species can be distinguished from another readily.

It's clear with a basic understanding of physics that different wood species will produce different tone quality, or timbre, or what we normally simply refer to as tone in the guitar world. It's reasonable to discuss the extent to which it contributes to the overall sound of a specific instrument, compared to all other factors, but it is absolutely incorrect to suggestion the wood has no affect on the tonal qualities of a vibrating string. Really, everything contributes to some extent.

Also, note that an analysis of standing waves only works for steady-state and does not consider the transients when the vibration is initiated - when the string is plucked.

Pretty sure standing waves are only a part of the waves created. Once the vibration passes past the ends of the string things get more complex.

 

[pipelineaudio]

The intensity of those sine waves relative to each other is what creates the tone quality, or basically the timbre in musical terms - what we hear as opposed to what actually exists physically. (They're close, but not identical. Just like pitch and fundamental frequency are not identical, but close.)

Exactly, and isn't it strange that the most (all?) audible harmonics are exactly what you would expect from the length of the string, the position of the pickup and then modified by the pickup's electronic characteristics and the RC circuit before the output? The wood itself changes none of this unless it is so flimsy it can't hold the string in place. The SPECIES of wood couldn't change this in any way

but one wood species can be distinguished from another readily.

Citation needed

It's clear with a basic understanding of physics that different wood species will produce different tone quality, or timbre, or what we normally simply refer to as tone in the guitar world.

Its clear that a basic understanding of physics that different species of wood have significant overlap, sometimes complete, so no, this is wrong

 

[DanTravis62]

Some of you need to go play some guitars instead of reading about them.

This is basically what it comes down to, trying to pre-emptively find reasons to disqualify expensive guitars because you're cheap, poor, or don't need specs that are expensive because you're shitty

 

[rsm]

 

[rstites]

Pretty sure standing waves are only a part of the waves created. Once the vibration passes past the ends of the string things get more complex.

I really don't understand what you mean by "vibration passes past the ends of the string". If anything else is vibrating, it will be sympathetic with the string vibration - this includes the sound wave created in the surrounding air.

Standing waves are the only waves that can be sustained on the string. As noted in my initial post, there are more complex issues in any transients, such as when the string is first plucked.

 

[JohnnyGtar]

And some of you need to actually hear enough guitars instead of making baseless claims about them

I'm in my mid-sixties. I got my first gig in a music store at age 19. I've literally sold and played hundreds of guitars. Yes, wood affects tone.

Yes @pipelineaudio, I know, I know: people's experiences and observations mean nothing. Anyway...

If Jim Lill is right, why isn't anyone (not just Mr. Lill) making guitars with asswood necks and plywood bodies? If he's right, those guitars should sell by the truckload.

And no one's smart enough to take a cue from Jim and build and sell solid state amps, since they can sound exactly like tube amps? Lost opportunity. Sigh.

Gosh, I can't fathom it.

 

[pipelineaudio]

This is basically what it comes down to, trying to pre-emptively find reasons to disqualify expensive guitars because you're cheap, poor, or don't need specs that are expensive because you're shitty

Did anyone actually do that?

Unless you are an elite guitar dealer, I bet I've heard, recorded and played a wider variety of guitars at any price range than probably most or all here.

Unlike many or most, I have done NOTHING in my life for money other than listen, record, modify and reproduce audio. From everyone from Amy Grant to Megadeth to Stevie Nicks. There was NEVER a money issue. No expense was spared when it came to making a lot of these albums. Down to changing drum heads every few takes, restringing guitars and basses after a few passes at most, sometimes keeping insanely expensive guitar techs like Michael Kaye on hand

I was never an accountant, a manager, chef, or tree surgeon or even played in a serious band standing next to a drummer and losing my hearing

I spent my whole life in the pursuit of the hows and whys of audio. And I had to accept when I was wrong. I had to care about whether or not my beliefs were true and commit myself to believing as many true things and as few false things as I possibly could



And even with that, its still an anecdotal fallacy the way so many of these "experience" based claims are.

If it exists it can be measured

If it can be heard it can be measured

So far all of the measurements fall on the reality based side of things and not the fantasy side

 

[rstites]

Exactly, and isn't it strange that the most (all?) audible harmonics are exactly what you would expect from the length of the string, the position of the pickup and then modified by the pickup's electronic characteristics and the RC circuit before the output? The wood itself changes none of this unless it is so flimsy it can't hold the string in place. The SPECIES of wood couldn't change this in any way

All harmonics are based on the length of the string. They're relative intensity is based on the entire system, which does include the physical makeup of the supporting medium which includes the wood.

Citation needed

You need a citation to believe that different materials have different physical properties? Seriously?

Its clear that a basic understanding of physics that different species of wood have significant overlap, sometimes complete, so no, this is wrong

I have a thought experiment for you. Do you believe here's a reason we use different species of wood for different construction purposes when constructing a building? If so, why? Perhaps it's because different species have different properties which are preferable for different situations because it turns out that they are constructed differently at the cellular (molecular) level.

Those differences do include the intensity of the harmonics they will produce when they vibrate. The same is true of the harmonics in a standing air wave in a column (pipes, organs, etc.). The material chosen to construct the instrument form does change the intensity (not frequency*) of the harmonics and therefore changes what we'd refer to as the tone.

* Caveat: frequency changes based on air temperature, pressure, and humidity, but we'll set that aside for this discussion.