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I figured out Bogner EQ - it's more than just a log Treble pot (with clips) also NAD Bogner content
- Thread starter TheGreatGreen
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It is switching between lo input on first channel and hi input on drive channel...useful for live playing...
loganflynn294
Member
Maybe? I’m still a beginner/amateur when it comes to this stuff haha. From my understanding, instead of being a low pass filter in the negative feedback loop, the presence is a weird RLC circuit that uses an inductor to dump certain midrange frequencies to ground while still letting highs and lows pass through. I think that’s why it can get tight like an amp with negative feedback without losing all the midrange harmonics. But I could also be totally wrong haha. Anyways, I love being able to play with the presence knob on my Rev 2 Uber to completely change the character of the amp with just small adjustments.
thegame
Well-known member
Thanks for clearing it up. Initially I did read the mention of the bass cut/clean boost but when it came time to reply, it just escaped my memory banks. My error, sorry. I also automatically assumed the applied post EQ was of a highly colored, character rich type of application. Something that fundamentally colors the tone in a pleasing, intentionally non transparent way, like a digital approximation of Pultech or Telefunken vintage EQ units. Bottom line is I guess there's much less "studio magic" in the clips than I first thought. I still like it lol
TheGreatGreen
Well-known member
Cool man, glad to clarify.
And thanks! I'm really digging this amp. The more I mess with it, the more stuff I'm finding that I like about it. Turns out the Plexi input and low gain tones in general are just as great as the high gain stuff.
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FourT6and2
Well-known member
The Helios is basically a JCM800 circuit with two inputs that engage or bypass gain stages + diode clipping. It's the most "raw" or "Marshally" sounding because it's an 800 with Jose mod for the most part. None of the component values are far off from what most hot-rodded Marshalls use. It's my favorite Bogner by far.
braintheory
Well-known member
That all sounds right, but why then do most other Jose Marshall type amps like Friedman’s or Fortin Meshuggah sound comparatively so much more homogenized & lacking in organic tonal nuances vs the Helios? And why do all the other Bogner’s sound lacking in that way too vs the Helios or Telos? I just assumed it was possibly from ptp or better quality components since I’m not a tech guy, but I guess not. As much as I love my Original version Uber it also has that more homogenized, flat newer amp sound. The Helios was for sure a great surprise to me in that regard. Was not expecting that
I also haven’t last tried a Helios since 2018, so I may hear it a little differently now. Hard to say
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FourT6and2
Well-known member
I'm not sure I 100% understand what this means. But I'll say I've owned originals of these amps and built identical circuits for myself. And they all sound similar. I wouldn't say the Helios is any more "organic" sounding than the others. It could just come down to how people tend to use them. The Meshuggah is marketed to a specific crowd. So they're gonna play specific types of music using 7/8 strings and run crazy boosts for an aggressive and bright sound. I've not heard anybody do that with a Helios, even though it would absolutely sound very similar.
Also NFB circuit has a huge impact on an amp. You can alter the Meshuggah's NFB circuit by changing two resistors and adding a cap, and it would sound like a completely different amp.
Just different circuits and different voicing. The Helios seems to be more of Bogner's homage to '80s Marshall tones.
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braintheory
Well-known member
It’s very hard to explain in words what I mean (just something to hear really), but what I feel is an organic sound is independent of style of music whether it’s the most extreme styles of metal or classic rock or clean. The other Bogner’s sound much more polished (I call it homogenized bc it’s not actually polished imo), smooth, far less complexity/details surrounding each note played and not responsive to expressive nuances in playing like the Helios or Telos. I have no idea technically why some amps are and aren’t good in that regard (this is where older gear does much better IME). To me this is the main thing that distinguishes “nice” gear & exceptional gear in all the categories. What some on here refer to as 3D. Most gear fails in this regard IME. I think the best instruments in all categories (like a Stradivarius) separate themselves from others by having a more complex tone. Just my opinion. This “it” factor is what keeps me going as a gearhead. Sorry for the rant
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TheGreatGreen
Well-known member
It’s interesting that you bring this up. I was just thinking it would be cool to be able to mess with the Helios' negative feedback. The effects loop has a “return volume” knob, and I wonder if it’s possible just to bypass that pot and add some internal resistor or something instead to set the loop for unity gain, and then you’d have an open pot port available to use for adjusting the negative feedback if you could find the right way to route it into the board.
I have basically zero experience with modding amps like that so I wouldn’t know the first thing about what to actually do, but I wonder if any electronics experts here might be able let us know how difficult something like that might be to pull off.
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FourT6and2
Well-known member
Yeah that's doable. You could do it as you say: hardwire the FX return pot using a resistor and then use the hole for variable NFB control. Or you could use a tiny trim pot on the board for NFB and adjust internally to keep the FX control.
NorCal_Val
Well-known member
The Helios is really the Marshall I've always wanted. Even with the 80s clipping engaged, it still has that "big" distortion feel/sound.
It is not a "modern" tone. Now, I just need the right 4x12 for it. My "magic" Friedman 4x12, with v30s and Greenbacks, is not
playing nice with the Helios.
VHTStark
Well-known member
Not sure if it is because my amp falls in the mystical "older is better" category or what, but I know my trusty 1996 101b standard has every bit the feel, nuance and expressiveness as any Helios. That is the reason I got rid of my Helios 100; my Ecstasy could do 90% of what the Helios could and was more versatile. It can also get pretty raw and aggressive: not quite the wild harmonic rawness of the Helios, but surprisingly much more so than my BE 100. Can't really speak for later model Ecstasy's.
My old Rev Green Uber, I also found to be pretty awesome feeling as well. I had a love/hate with it, as I found it hard to "reign in" so speak. I found my Rev Blue easier to dial in....although it is not as raw and doesn't feel quite as good. High hopes for the Uber Ultra I have on order that it can bring that OG Uber rawness an feel...with the ability to mold/control it!
braintheory
Well-known member
Yeah I do remember the late ‘90’s XTC’s sounding better, but haven’t heard them side by side to a Helios. The later XTC’s to me aren’t that special. I agree the Helios had that growl vs the XTC’s & Friedman’s
My Original Revision Uberschall is still for me one of my top 4 favorite amps I’ve owned, but no amp has it all. Some of the best feel of any amp I’ve had too like you said. Also, like you said it’s so cartoonish sounding that it can be a bit hard to tame if needed, but I often like its wildness. That got tamed/neutered in later revisions
I also have been very curious about the Uber Ultra, but haven’t made an order yet. Based on Reza’s clip it didn’t seem to get as raw or wild, but I liked that it could get a lot tighter and more modern and also quite aggressive. Will have to try one in person
headlessdeadguy
Well-known member
Not sure what all of the tech talk means but this thread inspired me to try different settings on my 101b last night and now I’m obsessed. Thanks
VHTStark
Well-known member
The Helios is kind of a sleeper amp in the modded Marshall world. Lots of guys want more rawness and all that and the Helios does a pretty good job. It definitely is more of a throwback amp, as opposed to say, a Friedman, where it is all polished and there is no crazy low end to reign in, or wild top end harmonics.
Ya, I do remember my old Uber being a wild beast! Lol! Here is the weird thing: most guys bought them for crushing rythm playing, but for me, it was one of (maybe the...) best feeling lead amp I have owned. It had this nice mix of saturation and bounce/chew....but at the same time it was so punchy and in your face across all frequencies.
Ya, I take Reza's review vids with a grain of salt. You are right in that it doesn't sound as raw or huge. But it does come across as very aggressive, punchy and tighter/more open than my Rev Blue. I doubt it will be quite as wild as the OG....but could still be a very versatile and great Uber in its own right!
braintheory
Well-known member
Agreed on all. As far as a production amp to get a raw Marshall sound, the Helios & Telos are tough to beat. The Telos is even more underrated imo, but less gain that the Helios. The Naylor is another good one for thatThe Helios is kind of a sleeper amp in the modded Marshall world. Lots of guys want more rawness and all that and the Helios does a pretty good job. It definitely is more of a throwback amp, as opposed to say, a Friedman, where it is all polished and there is no crazy low end to reign in, or wild top end harmonics.
Ya, I do remember my old Uber being a wild beast! Lol! Here is the weird thing: most guys bought them for crushing rythm playing, but for me, it was one of (maybe the...) best feeling lead amp I have owned. It had this nice mix of saturation and bounce/chew....but at the same time it was so punchy and in your face across all frequencies.
Ya, I take Reza's review vids with a grain of salt. You are right in that it doesn't sound as raw or huge. But it does come across as very aggressive, punchy and tighter/more open than my Rev Blue. I doubt it will be quite as wild as the OG....but could still be a very versatile and great Uber in its own right!
I’ve always had the OG Uber up there as one of my favorites for shred type leads tones, not quite as much for slower leads. I will definitely have to try an Uber Ultra at some point
Ventura
Well-known member
Couldn't agree more and IMHO - most evidenced on the TwinJet.
TheGreatGreen
Well-known member
So I played a Marshall JCM 2000 DSL 100 a day or two ago and discovered something. The Bogner EQ's Mid knob does behave the same as modern Marshall EQ, and the guys pointing that out were right. Both Bogner and Marshall use Mid knobs that act as high shelf controls. Who knew?
HOWEVER, a ton of other amps don't have EQ that behaves like this. I'm used to other brands like Mesa, Fender, EVH, and VHT amps. All those amps seem to use more "standard" Mid controls that only raise and lower the mids. What I'm not used to are Marshall amps, even though they're super common. It looks like the EQ info in the first post also applies to Marshalls, at least the JCM 2000 and presumably the 900 and 800, too. Not sure if the JVMs are like this.
Basically, what I'm saying is it turns out that Bogners and quite a few Marshalls use Mid knobs that act not just as Mid controls, but as high shelf controls. that raise and lower everything above a certain frequency.
HOWEVER, a ton of other amps don't have EQ that behaves like this. I'm used to other brands like Mesa, Fender, EVH, and VHT amps. All those amps seem to use more "standard" Mid controls that only raise and lower the mids. What I'm not used to are Marshall amps, even though they're super common. It looks like the EQ info in the first post also applies to Marshalls, at least the JCM 2000 and presumably the 900 and 800, too. Not sure if the JVMs are like this.
Basically, what I'm saying is it turns out that Bogners and quite a few Marshalls use Mid knobs that act not just as Mid controls, but as high shelf controls. that raise and lower everything above a certain frequency.