212 vs 412 Cab - Live Situation

[pjrake]

Okay fellas, please school me on the following: Can a 212 cab give you the same result (or almost close to) as a 412 cab in a live situation? This is for a five piece modern rock band. Playing anywhere from small to mid size clubs, and an occasional large venue (think Highline Ballroom in NYC if anyone knows the venue). I know about getting "distortion" from speakers and pushing the cones and moving air, and all those cool terms... but when it really comes down to it: do we really need 412s where 90% of the time the cabs are mic?

Appreciate everyone's input.

PJ

PS: Bonus question: 50watts vs. 100watts amp (high gain amps). Pros and cons with 212s and 412s, and best configurations on both!

 

[guitarmike]

I just bought an old Tube Works vertical 2x12 to point at my guitar for sustain and feedback when I play at church. My 4x12 is mic'ed and pointing towards the back away from the crowd so I have this thing aiming at me. It is wired so either both speakers are on or just the top one.

While messing with it I hooked up my amp to it and was surprised at the bottom end it has with the stock speakers. I could see doing a gig with just it. It really depends on the size of the place. I'd never play outside with less than a 4x12.

It cost me $100.

 

[Aristocat]

I find 2x12 cabs lack the bass response of their bigger brothers, but some of that comes down to the cabs themselves. my Orange 2x12 was beefy and thick, v30 loaded.

But I was still asked to turn down at several venues. Because they wanted to mic the cab.

Now I take a 4x12, so that even if I have to turn down, at least there is a couple more speakers to hear over my drummer (hits super hard).

In the end the only thing that matters is that you sound good out in the audience, I'm thinking about one of those convertible iso cabs you can have on stage and open an vent that disperses the sound to you as well.

Can't remember the guys name but If I remember I will post it.

Have to agree with you there man.

I had an Orange PPC2x12 and although V30's aren't my thing, the thing sounded massive.
Depending on the venue, I'll bring a 4x12 loaded with only two speakers (top mounted and with Greenbacks) so I can open the amp up a little more. Try with a smaller cab opening up the master to 7 and adding gain/pre-amp from there. It's great too if you use any sort O.D. for push. That was you get some Power Tube distortion at least.

Works for me

 

[Sierra Voodoo]

I find 2x12 cabs lack the bass response of their bigger brothers, but some of that comes down to the cabs themselves. my Orange 2x12 was beefy and thick, v30 loaded.

But I was still asked to turn down at several venues. Because they wanted to mic the cab.

Now I take a 4x12, so that even if I have to turn down, at least there is a couple more speakers to hear over my drummer (hits super hard).

In the end the only thing that matters is that you sound good out in the audience, I'm thinking about one of those convertible iso cabs you can have on stage and open an vent that disperses the sound to you as well.

Can't remember the guys name but If I remember I will post it.

Have to agree with you there man.

I had an Orange PPC2x12 and although V30's aren't my thing, the thing sounded massive.
Depending on the venue, I'll bring a 4x12 loaded with only two speakers (top mounted and with Greenbacks) so I can open the amp up a little more. Try with a smaller cab opening up the master to 7 and adding gain/pre-amp from there. It's great too if you use any sort O.D. for push. That was you get some Power Tube distortion at least.

Works for me

+1 on the Orange cabs. I made the switch from a Mesa 4x12 to two Orange PPC 212's. More often than not I use just one 2x12 because these cabs sound huge; however, I will occasionally use both at a large venue.

 

[thiswaythatway]

While they don't seem as popular, I found vertical 2x12's worked great for live and cut like a knife. I used the Mesa one years ago and it killed live.

 

[pjrake]

My other guitarist is using an Orange 212 (don't know which one), with an Axe FX2. I might lean more to a 212 cab, and possibly have an extra 212 for larger venues.

This is great! Thanks all, keep 'em coming.

PJ

 

[glassjaw7]

For my band a 212 or 412 doesn't make much of a difference, really. We mic up our cabs (I use two mics) and use a pretty big PA system,and I use a wedge or IEM. I could probably use a 112 and get very similar results as far as the mix in the crowd, but a 212 is a nice compromise. Moves some air and is relatively easy to haul.

 

[pjrake]

For my band a 212 or 412 doesn't make much of a difference, really. We mic up our cabs (I use two mics) and use a pretty big PA system,and I use a wedge or IEM. I could probably use a 112 and get very similar results as far as the mix in the crowd, but a 212 is a nice compromise. Moves some air and is relatively easy to haul.

What are the advantages of using 2 mics for one cab? Also, if you're playing a venue that has its own PA and soundguy, would you still use 2 mics? I do have my own mic for my cab (with it's own built-in stand) and usually the soundguy doesn't have a problem using it instead of theirs.

PJ

 

[Digital Jams]

While they don't seem as popular, I found vertical 2x12's worked great for live and cut like a knife. I used the Mesa one years ago and it killed live.

Yeah the vertical cab is a must for me, I bring 4x12s but the concept is the same as you have one speaker pointing towards your ears.

 

[joepete77]

I have an old beater early 80's marshall 2x12 with blackbacks that I use .75 of the time that sounds great. I stand it up sideways with my head on top. I like the lighter weight and less space of a 2x12 also.

 

[Spaceboy]

I actually prefer stacking 212s in most cases, and mostly use a front-loaded cabinet for band use. I play heavy metal though, and the lack of bass in 212s is precisely why I like them. It has all the sound of a 212, but seems tighter and more clear.

 

[glassjaw7]

For my band a 212 or 412 doesn't make much of a difference, really. We mic up our cabs (I use two mics) and use a pretty big PA system,and I use a wedge or IEM. I could probably use a 112 and get very similar results as far as the mix in the crowd, but a 212 is a nice compromise. Moves some air and is relatively easy to haul.

What are the advantages of using 2 mics for one cab? Also, if you're playing a venue that has its own PA and soundguy, would you still use 2 mics? I do have my own mic for my cab (with it's own built-in stand) and usually the soundguy doesn't have a problem using it instead of theirs.

PJ

I use a 57 on axis for dry cut, and a Shure KSM32 for a sweeter, fatter, natural tone. The two blend really well together. We have our own system and sound guy, but we play some smaller clubs/bars without him and use the house system, or sometimes just our mains and a powered mixer. In that case I usually just use one or the other (more likely the Shure)

Yeah, I can't imagine most soundguys having a problem using the guitarist's mic of choice. Unless they're really lazy and don't want to eq a new mic.

 

[some dude]

The only thing I don't like about my 2x12 is that it's harder to hear than my 4x12 slant.

I have a 27" wide rear ported 1x12 combo that has a surprisingly big sound and can hold it's own against my 2x12 or 4x12, plus it has the ability to spread sound around like an open back cab does. I suspect the extra depth of sound comes from the 1x12 having a 2x12 sized baffle, which should allow the baffle itself to move a bit more.

I'm thinking about getting the matching 27" extension cab and using that with my heads instead of the closed back 2x12.

 

[tripstan]

I've used 2x12 for like 8 years. The right 2x12 will be plenty but nothing rocks like a 4x12 But Glassjaw hit the nail on the head. I've used 2x12 RL open back, 1x12 RL open back and 1x12 front load sealed back and now a Vertical 2x12 FL sealed back w/ a 100 watt Einstein.

2x12 FL sealed back w/ G12-65's is what I'm running now. I love it. EV's are good in there too.
1x12 FL sealed w/a EV12ML is great. Those are my 2 favs for high gain stuff with the Diezel.

P.S. As you can tell I'm REALLY hip the front loads now

 

[mbman]

Been using a Genz Benz 212 G Flex since '04 and it's killer. However, it doesn't have the thump or depth of a 412.

I am getting close to fifty now and carting around a 212 does make those late night load outs much more bearable

Martin

 

[Robotechnology]

More often than not I run a 2X12 and cart out a 4X12 where the LOOK of the show really matters. I normally use a Mesa 3/4 back 2X12 for gigging. I had a DV Mark 4X12 on loan for a while and I DEFINITELY would use it for every show if I owned one (50 lb 4X12 that sounds good!).

 

[Valtyr]

I got a 2X12 because it fits in my car, and my Mark III head is too wide to fit on the 1X12 I had. If I ever start gigging as a guitarist then I'll reconsider, but even the 2X12 is overkill for my current needs.

 

[Spaceboy]

More often than not I run a 2X12 and cart out a 4X12 where the LOOK of the show really matters. I normally use a Mesa 3/4 back 2X12 for gigging. I had a DV Mark 4X12 on loan for a while and I DEFINITELY would use it for every show if I owned one (50 lb 4X12 that sounds good!).

DV Mark needs to make a closed back 212.

 

[pjrake]

Looks like I'm leaning more towards a 212 (I guess I wanted to convince myself LOL).

The next question would be an Orange 212 or a MESA 212? Also, should I place the cab on the stage floor (with casters) or on top of the rig (a amp/8 space road rack case); the cab would be at ear level if placed on top of the case.

Man, I really appreciate all the advice and suggestions; this forum is freakin' awesome! \m/

PJ

 

[moltenmetalburn]

I play vertical 2x12' s.
some times just one other times both.
They kill just as a 4x12 albeit a little less bass depending on cab design.

Not mine though. The total volume of both is larger than a single 4x12 so they are massive sounding. The sealed bottom chambers also make up for the missing bass. Just devastating. Can u tell I love my forte s/v cabs,lol.

Here they are:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=115878