Advice on Blending Two High Gain Amps VH2 + Archon

[LucyLived]

Woo first post!

So I'm a tone freak who's been experimenting with some different amp combinations to create a new sound for use in my original prog rock/metal band. I have a Diezel VH2, a PRS Archon 100, and 2 Mesa 4x12 cabs.

Both of these two amps sound pretty darn amazing through one or two of these cabs. I replaced all of the tubes in my Archon, and I think it actually sounds better than the Diezel when it comes to a mid heavy distorted tone. I'm after Adam Jones' tone of 10,000 days. It's very mid heavy, but also huge sounding.

Anyway, my issues is that while I love the sound of both of these amps, I want to use them in conjunction with one another, but no matter what I do, they don't seem to blend well. I don't have experience blending amps, so this could be user error. The gain gets out of hand quick even when I'm keeping it low.

Last night I spent about an hour trying to blend them while using the same cab. So each amp got 2 speakers from a single mesa 4x12. I want to use a single cab when gigging, which is why I'm trying this. Is this a part of my blending issue?

I know this is pretty open ended, but if anyone has advice in regards to blending this beasts, I'm all ears!

 

[lockingtuner]

Woo first post!

So I'm a tone freak who's been experimenting with some different amp combinations to create a new sound for use in my original prog rock/metal band. I have a Diezel VH4, a PRS Archon 100, and 2 Mesa 4x12 cabs.

Both of these two amps sound pretty darn amazing through one or two of these cabs. I replaced all of the tubes in my Archon, and I think it actually sounds better than the Diezel when it comes to a mid heavy distorted tone. I'm after Adam Jones' tone of 10,000 days. It's very mid heavy, but also huge sounding.

Anyway, my issues is that while I love the sound of both of these amps, I want to use them in conjunction with one another, but no matter what I do, they don't seem to blend well. I don't have experience blending amps, so this could be user error. The gain gets out of hand quick even when I'm keeping it low.

Last night I spent about an hour trying to blend them while using the same cab. So each amp got 2 speakers from a single mesa 4x12. I want to use a single cab when gigging, which is why I'm trying this. Is this a part of my blending issue?

I know this is pretty open ended, but if anyone has advice in regards to blending this beasts, I'm all ears!

You're doing the right thing by just experimenting.

Generally, the more different two amps are, the better (or more easily) they'll blend, so things like using different cabs and different settings on the amps can help. When two amps are more similar, they still might sound good together, but the reasons or why not become more complicated, and blending them won't be quite as easy (unless they're very similar to each other).

I don't know these amps so I can't tell you specifically what will or won't work. Different cabs and contrasting settings on the heads is a good place to start. I'd also suggest flipping the phase on one of the signals and working from the position that sounds best to you. From there, you could try putting some equalizers in the loops and start methodically cutting frequencies.

 

[nightlight]

I've blended an Archon and Diezel as well. The trick with blending is to ensure that each amp is not overpowering the other. Set one so that it complements the other.

 

[JerEvil]

Great topic as this is relevant to my interests.

 

[Ventura]

I've blended an Archon and Diezel as well. The trick with blending is to ensure that each amp is not overpowering the other. Set one so that it complements the other.

Exactly this. Now, I'll confess complete ignorance on the Archon amp - never tried one - but the trick is to make each amp sound unique unto itself, and hopefully, sonically, that uniqueness can correlate with the other. Another important factor is phase-shifting. A decent splitter (Lehle S-Go-S, for example) will have not only separate transformers and the like to eliminate ground buzz and signal interference, but it'll have an in-phase/out-phase button in order to make sure the two [inevitable] tones don't cancel each other out to a noticeable degree.

I'm into stereo rigs, with stereo FX (delay, mod, pitch, flange, etc). Diezel + Bogner matching. Where one amp may shine in crystalline cleans and brightness (ie: Hagen Ch.1), the other will be warmer, rounder and more deep (ie: Shiva 20th) - blended, they sound amazing. Into the higher gain stuff, I let the Diezels do their thing (which is that rich, distinct, 3D wall-of-sound thickness heaviness) and match it to the more open Marshally style of the gain channels of the Bogners. Keep your ears tuned to the mids - one amp should be focused on lower mids, the other on upper mids - and blend. Don't attempt to make both have "equal" gain/compression, but rather, have them complement one another. An amp may have more gain and compression, so therefore, the other should be more open and aggressive to separate itself. Adding the two together will be magic when it's done right.

But straight up, a quality splitter is key IMHO; I love the Lehle products - YMMV.
Mo

 

[LucyLived]

Great advice all around! I'm going to look into a higher quality splitter than I currently have. I was trying to go with one amp having a scooped sound, while the other being mid heavy. Both of these amps do both of those really well, but I think I need to find more nuance than that.

And for reference, I'd describe the archon 100 as very VH4 ch.3 ish, but with a smoother gain, and sweeter lead tone, slightly less focused.

 

[Dave L]

Yeah, layering two pretty similar high gain tones is often a lot less interesting than layering in a cleaner, chunkier track that´s lower in the mix. Isn´t that the Tool thing, by the way, one Diezel and one Marshall Super Lead?

 

[GOHOINC]

Tons of good tips here. One I'll note to is space. Imo running two amps stereo through 1 4x12 doesn't allow enough space between tones to get the wow factor. I find two cabs, even if they are right next to each other, sounded bigger and better than stereo through a single cab, especially if the two amps are the same or have similar tone "footprints" so to speak. I think this is especially true when running stereo vs. Wet/dry.

 

[glassjaw7]

I ran into this same issue before I bought a decent splitter. I used to use a regular Morley AB and it just sounded like shit no matter how I set the amps. Bought a proper box with phase switch and isolated output and all is well. My only other advice is turn the gain down a bit on both amps if you’re running it high.

Those amps are somewhat similarly voiced from what I remember (played both but not side by side) but I remember the Archon being a bit more full bodied so they should pair well enough.

 

[Ventura]

Here's the splitter (also just posted in another semi-related topic) https://lehle.com/PL/Lehle-Dual-SGoS

And yes, the key is to get 2 amps that shake each other's hands, so to speak (shitty metaphor, sorry). I'd not be at all jazzed to, say, stereo rig a VH4 with a Hagen - they're just too similar. I've had great alchemy with the Hagen & the 20th Shiva, and am now pairing the D-Moll with the 20th XTC (EL34). When I'm setting my EQ and individual amps up - I go for "what that amp offers in its uniqueness" and this then - usually - translates to one amp being chunkier and darker with more open grit; the other more saturated, little smoother/compressed and offering more emphasis on the highs and lows; mids tend to be the signature trait of most amps out there - so I've not worried about that unless they're the same DNA (as above, the Hagen and VH4 just don't work) - I just tweak the mids to make sure they don't overlap too obviously.

Having the aforementioned Lehle splitter, it's been a cool exercise in knowing just "how close" two independent amps are set up. For instance, I had my Shiva and JJ100 set up in stereo - lo and behold - they were so close in core tone that the phase-cancellation seemed to have to be toggled for each of the 3 channels...the frequencies were lining up almost too much. They sounded too alike. Enter the Shiva + Hagen, I've got tonal bliss on tap (and Jones Toanz for days if I want it, but I'd prefer my own tone thank you very much). If I A or B while playing, the difference of each is striking - almost crazily different. Together they rip. Now I'm setting up the D-Moll with the 20thA XTC, this will be another interesting bit of sonic math. But I know it'll work as the D-Moll can do a lot with its mids (higher and middle) whereas the XTC has that lower shelf and chewiness in Blue and Red mode. For clean - I'll make one sparkle, the other darker.

It's fun to experiment, frustrating as hell when it doesn't click the first or twentieth time; but when you start figuring out the puzzle pieces, the work and wait are worth it. But get a GOOD splitter up front and centre.

Peace
Mo

 

[skullfxr]

I when I record two amps I make sure they are complimentary to each other. A rec with a hot rodded Marshall or 5150. The only time I have had good results with the same amp sounding different is doing what lamb of God did with the mkIV's, radially different EQ, a significant difference in the gain.

I am far from a pro, so I would listen to the veteran recorders before my experience.

 

[LucyLived]

Here's the splitter (also just posted in another semi-related topic) https://lehle.com/PL/Lehle-Dual-SGoS

And yes, the key is to get 2 amps that shake each other's hands, so to speak (shitty metaphor, sorry). I'd not be at all jazzed to, say, stereo rig a VH4 with a Hagen - they're just too similar. I've had great alchemy with the Hagen & the 20th Shiva, and am now pairing the D-Moll with the 20th XTC (EL34). When I'm setting my EQ and individual amps up - I go for "what that amp offers in its uniqueness" and this then - usually - translates to one amp being chunkier and darker with more open grit; the other more saturated, little smoother/compressed and offering more emphasis on the highs and lows; mids tend to be the signature trait of most amps out there - so I've not worried about that unless they're the same DNA (as above, the Hagen and VH4 just don't work) - I just tweak the mids to make sure they don't overlap too obviously.

Having the aforementioned Lehle splitter, it's been a cool exercise in knowing just "how close" two independent amps are set up. For instance, I had my Shiva and JJ100 set up in stereo - lo and behold - they were so close in core tone that the phase-cancellation seemed to have to be toggled for each of the 3 channels...the frequencies were lining up almost too much. They sounded too alike. Enter the Shiva + Hagen, I've got tonal bliss on tap (and Jones Toanz for days if I want it, but I'd prefer my own tone thank you very much). If I A or B while playing, the difference of each is striking - almost crazily different. Together they rip. Now I'm setting up the D-Moll with the 20thA XTC, this will be another interesting bit of sonic math. But I know it'll work as the D-Moll can do a lot with its mids (higher and middle) whereas the XTC has that lower shelf and chewiness in Blue and Red mode. For clean - I'll make one sparkle, the other darker.

It's fun to experiment, frustrating as hell when it doesn't click the first or twentieth time; but when you start figuring out the puzzle pieces, the work and wait are worth it. But get a GOOD splitter up front and centre.

Peace
Mo

I purchased the Lehle P-Splitt II.
https://lehle.com/PL/Lehle-P-Split-II
This should work just as well, right? It has the phase switch and ground lift options.

You're getting me excited to experiment more with the VH4 and Archon. Although similar, I can hear a characteristic difference, mainly in the mids, I'm hoping that's enough. Thanks for the excellent insight!

 

[Ventura]

I purchased the Lehle P-Splitt II.
https://lehle.com/PL/Lehle-P-Split-II
This should work just as well, right? It has the phase switch and ground lift options.

You're getting me excited to experiment more with the VH4 and Archon. Although similar, I can hear a characteristic difference, mainly in the mids, I'm hoping that's enough. Thanks for the excellent insight!

I think that unit ought to be fine. I've not used that particular unit, but knowing it's a Lehle and it's using the ISO separation and phase/lift technology - it should be absolutely fine. The S-Go-S does offer some more gadgetry on-tap, such as signal attenuation when both (or, in some cases, all three) channels are activated, but this P-Split-II looks like it'll do the job just fine.

And on that note - back to blending amps myself

Have a good night y'all...
Mo

 

[LucyLived]

I purchased the Lehle P-Splitt II.
https://lehle.com/PL/Lehle-P-Split-II
This should work just as well, right? It has the phase switch and ground lift options.

You're getting me excited to experiment more with the VH4 and Archon. Although similar, I can hear a characteristic difference, mainly in the mids, I'm hoping that's enough. Thanks for the excellent insight!

I think that unit ought to be fine. I've not used that particular unit, but knowing it's a Lehle and it's using the ISO separation and phase/lift technology - it should be absolutely fine. The S-Go-S does offer some more gadgetry on-tap, such as signal attenuation when both (or, in some cases, all three) channels are activated, but this P-Split-II looks like it'll do the job just fine.

And on that note - back to blending amps myself

Have a good night y'all...
Mo

I tried out the Lehle P Splitt II last night. It seems to have fixed what was a phasing issue, as well as a ground hum. Excellent little device!

I've also edited the title(thanks to Ventura's recommendations) to reflect that I have a VH2 as opposed to a VH4. I originally said VH4, because I thought that would attract more feedback, but perhaps that's not true considering the VH2 is such a new amp.

Tonight and tomorrow I'll be playing around with the blending these amps, and also seeing how they react to my two les Pauls's, one with a dimarzio in the bridge, and one with lace sensors(Mastodon FTW).

 

[Ventura]

.....I originally said VH4, because I thought that would attract more feedback, but perhaps that's not true considering the VH2 is such a new amp.

Tonight and tomorrow I'll be playing around with the blending these amps, and also seeing how they react to my two les Pauls's, one with a dimarzio in the bridge, and one with lace sensors(Mastodon FTW).

Keep us posted on the VH2 - it's a new product and I know a LOT of people are keen to get their hands on the holy grail "Ch.3" action this amp has to offer. How are the loops on it? Does the clean dirty up nicely??

Thanks LL!!
Mojo

 

[LucyLived]

.....I originally said VH4, because I thought that would attract more feedback, but perhaps that's not true considering the VH2 is such a new amp.

Tonight and tomorrow I'll be playing around with the blending these amps, and also seeing how they react to my two les Pauls's, one with a dimarzio in the bridge, and one with lace sensors(Mastodon FTW).

Keep us posted on the VH2 - it's a new product and I know a LOT of people are keen to get their hands on the holy grail "Ch.3" action this amp has to offer. How are the loops on it? Does the clean dirty up nicely??

Thanks LL!!
Mojo

While the VH2 is my first 'real' experience with a Diezel, it seems very unique. It took me a little while to find my comfort zone on it, but it's really grown on me to the point where I couldn't imagine not using it. The channel 2 is my home, and why I purchased it. I love the character and where the mids are voiced. Mean mids is where it's at. As aggressive as the amp is, it cleans up with a light pick attack like no other amp I've tried. Very dynamic. I assume the VH4 channel 3 shares that characteristic.

I haven't spent nearly as much time on channel 1, as I usually just use a volume pedal to clean up my tone, but it also seems very dynamic. And it does dirty up nicely! Lots of headroom too, much prettier.

I spent(way too much time, I'm afraid to say how many hours[how my gf hasn't left me, I don't know]) playing and blending my amps yesterday. I'm dialing in the Diezel VH2 very mid heavy and as the main component of my tone, and then slowly bringing up the Archon to add thickness to it. I'm keeping the treble knob completely off on the archon, and really pushing the bass and depth, some mids. It is adding a nice low punch, and it sounds pretty darn epic combined! I'm doing my best to keep the gain as low as possible on both amps, as I'm noticing some harshness in the high end when these amps are blended. In this a common issue with high gain sounds with more than one amp? It hurts the articulation some, and both of these amps are very articulate. I'm thinking of maybe putting an eq before the archon to totally kill the high frequencies.. hmm maybe even in the loop. This also inspired me to adjust my pickup to be more friendly to this dual amp sound, super tight and dynamic now!

My band's rehearsing tonight, and tomorrow we're got a 45 minute set, so I'm hoping to finally hit the stage with both of these monsters. Thanks to everyone that's been a part of this conversation so far!

 

[Wizard of Ozz]

Those are two low-mid voiced, compressed amps that are living in the same piece of sonic real estate. Something like a Marshall 2203, or similar would blend better.

 

[Ventura]

Those are two low-mid voiced, compressed amps that are living in the same piece of sonic real estate. Something like a Marshall 2203, or similar would blend better.

I think the Archon might be able to move into the higher mids zone while keeping the low-end in tact, and have the Ch.3 Diezel tone punish the meat in the middle...

LL is figuring it out. I think it'll come together nicely. I've had a lot of paired amps that shared similar sonic real estate - took a long time to have them complement one another, but only in 2 instances did the amps simply "not" get along. Otherwise it was a matter of patience and counter-intuitiveness

 

[LucyLived]

The Archon has a bright switch for the mids that allows the user to change where in the EQ the mid knob effects the tone. I was mainly trying it with the bright switch off, I'll try working with the high mids tonight. I'm thinking of putting an EQ pedal in the loop too to help tweak it from there. I'm hoping I can tame these beasts.

 

[Ventura]

Status update?? You got a gig tonight, ammiright??