Amp volume, tone, and recording

C

C1-ocaster

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Often it's been stated here and on the interwebs that the best distorted guitar tones are from cranked tube amps.
Crank the tube amp so much that it brings in the power tubes natural distortion, and that gives a "better" tone and better feel.
This is put out in comparison to high gain distortion coming from pre tubes only.
Power tube distortion being claimed to be superior to pre tube distortion, which could/is true for some amps.

I'm wondering how much volume some of you use for recording in a studio environment and at home when you're making tone demo's for posting on the web.
So how loud are you guys really cranking up your amps to get the "better" power tube tone for recording?
Have you measured the SPL at the mic point? If so, what is it?

I tend to like the tones and feel of high gain amps at lower levels. These are amps that have channel gain, channel volume, and then a master volume.
I've got a 120 watt head and I run it nearly exclusively in half power 60 watt mode.
Since it's got a channel gain, volume, and master, the beauty of that is I can use the pre tube distortion at any volume level. But I can also dime the master and use the channel volume to get room level. That method brings in a better touch sensitivity and a cool growl that comes from power tubes.
I'm not sure if that is actually happening, but it sure sounds that way, and I don't have to crank beyond a nicely loud conversation volume level.
The other method is to gain then dime the channel volume and use the master for volume level. It's a different tone and feel.
 
I honestly think that speaker distortion and air movement play a bigger role when it comes to modern high gain amps. I have a Mesa triple rec and a Pittbull ultra lead, I used to own an Engl Invader. I didn't really notice a drastic change with the Pittbull or invader. They both sounded best with the master at 12 oclock and it was definitely noticeable, but it wasn't night and day to my ears. The mesa sounds best with the master at 9 or 10 oclock and it makes a much bigger difference. Never measured the SPL though

Whatever sounds best to you is best for you, but I think that both the master and ch vol are before the poweramp, so it doesn't really make a difference which one is set where regarding PT distortion. The final output of both feeds the power amp
 
For me, I usually like to rehearse, play, and record at the amp's "sweet spot". On my amps, the master is usually around 4 or 6.
 
I never recorded with my high gain amps "dimed". On most the high gainers ive had, I usually ended up between 4-7 on the master and found that to be plenty enough to get the amp to breath. I admit, I was never really into experimenting a lot while recording in regards to sheer volume. I was more into tweaking the tone controls and messing with mic placement which seemed to be the key for getting a good tone for me. I never worried much about SPL's when using a 57 close, which is what I would use. Room mics were various but I dont think SPL's would matter unless your into ribbon mics and such.
 
Anytime I dime anything, my power tubes go soon after. Not worth it. That said, playing at low volumes is thin, artificial sounding, weak. Lacks the girth. if recording, I like to get the master up to 4 - 6, sometimes attenuated. A happy medium between preamp and power distortion. IT doesn't flub out but it also breathes and sounds really raw and open.
 
benduncan":3bwac4zs said:
I honestly think that speaker distortion and air movement play a bigger role when it comes to modern high gain amps. I have a Mesa triple rec and a Pittbull ultra lead, I used to own an Engl Invader. I didn't really notice a drastic change with the Pittbull or invader. They both sounded best with the master at 12 oclock and it was definitely noticeable, but it wasn't night and day to my ears. The mesa sounds best with the master at 9 or 10 oclock and it makes a much bigger difference. Never measured the SPL though

Whatever sounds best to you is best for you, but I think that both the master and ch vol are before the poweramp, so it doesn't really make a difference which one is set where regarding PT distortion. The final output of both feeds the power amp
Click to expand...

Most of the responses are what I guessed people would use.
With solid state amps typically max volume is around the noon position, beyond that and you're getting into nasty sounding SS distortion. With tube amps seems many are about max volume by around noon as well, but you can go beyond that into smooth power tube saturation.

What got me thinking about this is that it doesn't seem one would need a 100 watt amp for recording. Live that's a different story.
For recording you're looking for the best tone, and where that is can be different amp to amp.

The SPL question is just one of curiosity. Every time I've been in a studio recording I've never measured SPL either, just go for tone.

Regarding your last comment, on my Vengeance it does make a difference which way I run channel vol and master, even with channel gain at the same level.
I can crank the master, dime it if I like, crank the gain, and use the channel volume to set room level. And it sounds and feels great as it sounds like there is some power tube distortion and sensitivity and dynamic range go up.
If I crank the gain, and the channel volume, and use the master to set over all volume level it's not the same. The tone and feel are different, not as good.
The way I run it it's like a power soak effect. Not at the same level I'm sure, but it's got some of the good effects.

I don't read or see many players run their 3 stage amps like that.
The poster above wrote that tubes burn out soon after diming anything.
I'm lucky as my tubes are going strong, so far anyway. :)
Guess I should check the heat output of the amp to make sure.
Good thing the Vengeance has a built in fan.

I've got to get a single volume amp one of these days.
Everyone says how great the sensitivity and dynamics are with those amps.

Judging from you're settings, seems you're getting the best of high gain from the pre's as well as power tube distortion.
But man it's got to be pretty loud. :)
Have you tried what I'm describing, that is if you've got an amp with gain, ch. volume, and master?
 
When I record little clips I generally put the volume on 2 on my 120 watt head and 4x12. It's pretty loud for the room. Probably loud enough to play with most drummers. Putting the volume on 3 is pretty thunderous, shakes the room and is what I would call the sweetest of the sweet spots.
 
I may be a minority here but I really like the tones I get at lounge room levels, it's tight and crisp, I am so used to that tone that I find a cranked amp too compressed. For home recordings I play fairly quiet compared to gig volumes. Don't get me wrong I love standing in front of a blaring 4x12 when playing live, can't beat that moving air!
Here's a couple of tunes recorded really low > https://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... ID=8324769 https://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... D=11338199
 
I am mostly playing at home these days with a bit of home recording. I work 3rd shift so most of my free time is after the family is asleep. I have tried most modelers and don't really care for any of them. I can get some pretty decent sounds from my Peavey 5150 and Mesa Mark III but wanted to try an amp I could crank so I got a Marshall JVM1 recently. It has a low power switch which drops it from 1 watt to .1 watt, which means I can crank it at 3am in my music room downstairs without waking up the family upstairs.

The biggest difference I have noticed is feel and response. It's much more dynamic than running an high powered amp with preamp gain high and the master volume at 1 (or less).
 
I usually have the amp cranked, but nowhere near dimed. As was stated above, somewhere between 4-6 with a really thick mattress pad doubled over and a few feet in front of the cab so its not killing us. It knocks down the ice pick effect and db's enough to be helpful without totally killing what I'm hearing in the room. We are close miking the cabs so it dosent bother the mikes, and I can still get notes to feedback at will if I need them to. We dont have isolation booth's, so we just find ways to make what we have work.
There does seem to be a definite difference as far as what the mikes are seeing tonewise if the amp is breathing a bit.
 
I agree with the cranked power tubes theory & that's why the Two Note Torpedo Live is the best piece of kit I've bought in the last 5 years. Crank that 120 watt head & play anything at a normal listening volume = easy.
 
supersonic":qsjzz2ua said:
I may be a minority here but I really like the tones I get at lounge room levels, it's tight and crisp, I am so used to that tone that I find a cranked amp too compressed. For home recordings I play fairly quiet compared to gig volumes. Don't get me wrong I love standing in front of a blaring 4x12 when playing live, can't beat that moving air!
Here's a couple of tunes recorded really low > https://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... ID=8324769 https://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... D=11338199
Click to expand...

Well, your clips do sound pretty good and so do Zachman's but when you say "really low", what does that look like on the volume? Is that a Marsha and XTC in those clips? Unless "marsha does country" is the name of a porn star...

Zachman how high was the vol set on that Atomica? I gotta say, i really like the clips of those 2012 Atomicas. Too bad the whole thing tanked.
 
I just did a record, and for some of the tones we used a SLO and 101b together, both masters were around 5 or 6. It was LOUD.
 
Kapo_Polenton":236y6d85 said:
supersonic":236y6d85 said:
I may be a minority here but I really like the tones I get at lounge room levels, it's tight and crisp, I am so used to that tone that I find a cranked amp too compressed. For home recordings I play fairly quiet compared to gig volumes. Don't get me wrong I love standing in front of a blaring 4x12 when playing live, can't beat that moving air!
Here's a couple of tunes recorded really low > https://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... ID=8324769 https://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... D=11338199
Click to expand...

Well, your clips do sound pretty good and so do Zachman's but when you say "really low", what does that look like on the volume? Is that a Marsha and XTC in those clips? Unless "marsha does country" is the name of a porn star...

Zachman how high was the vol set on that Atomica? I gotta say, i really like the clips of those 2012 Atomicas. Too bad the whole thing tanked.
Click to expand...

Barely cracked, TV volumes, with the gain knob on the back set for the highest gain/max diode clipping. You can actually hear me stepping on the foot switch buttons over the volume of the electric guitar.

IMAG0343.jpg
 
supersonic":1r9qwjt9 said:
I may be a minority here but I really like the tones I get at lounge room levels, it's tight and crisp, I am so used to that tone that I find a cranked amp too compressed. For home recordings I play fairly quiet compared to gig volumes. Don't get me wrong I love standing in front of a blaring 4x12 when playing live, can't beat that moving air!
Here's a couple of tunes recorded really low > https://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... ID=8324769 https://www.soundclick.com/bands/page_so ... D=11338199
Click to expand...

I find that too with some 50 watt+ amps.
The 5150 III was like that. Tone and feel wasn't so great once I cranked it up.
Lots of volume and air moving, but not that particular amp for me.
Could have been something wrong like too hot bias on tubes.

Single volume amps have a natural need for higher power.
Amps with gain and master, or gain-volume-master seem to sound better at lower volumes imo. By "lower volume" I mean below the 12 o'clock position.

Could be that driving that front end pre-gained signal into a power tube and then cranking the power tube to saturation over-drives the power tubes and the tone can compress badly.
Maybe.
 
JTyson":2gi3q5r1 said:
I usually have the amp cranked, but nowhere near dimed. As was stated above, somewhere between 4-6 with a really thick mattress pad doubled over and a few feet in front of the cab so its not killing us. It knocks down the ice pick effect and db's enough to be helpful without totally killing what I'm hearing in the room. We are close miking the cabs so it dosent bother the mikes, and I can still get notes to feedback at will if I need them to. We dont have isolation booth's, so we just find ways to make what we have work.
There does seem to be a definite difference as far as what the mikes are seeing tonewise if the amp is breathing a bit.
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, I don't run the amp volume dimed, iow, at it's loudest.
I'm describing a setting that sounds and feels really good where the master volume is dimed or pretty close.
The channel gain is set pretty high for the distortion. Then I use the channel volume to control overall volume.

Leaving the channel gain the same and diming the channel volume, then using the master to control overall volume does not result in the same tone and feel. Actually, that method doesn't sound go great.
I'd like to hear from players that have amps with 3 levels like my Vengeance, and try what I describe. Tell me if it's good, great, or sucks.
That's an amp with channel gain, channel volume, and channel master.
 
sytharnia1560":1r4owd0u said:
LLEADD":1r4owd0u said:
Any good clips of both types of distortion?
Click to expand...

maybe ZACHMAN could do another one with the gain down and the amp cranked for us?? ...... location dependant of course
Click to expand...

Loud! w/ various settings across the videos, but the recordings are mono and lame. I am still working on a setup to record.





















 
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