Anatomy of a Pack - Chapter 17: Cameron Cartage

[overthemountain]

Um, could've been packed better.




LOL

Wow seriously that was an amazing pack job man, peanuts or not. They are a pain in the ass but I think if I opened that package up I'd be fine knowing the care you put into it. Great work.

 

[Mark Day]

Um, could've been packed better.




LOL

Wow seriously that was an amazing pack job man, peanuts or not. They are a pain in the ass but I think if I opened that package up I'd be fine knowing the care you put into it. Great work.

The point I'm making, now, is UPS states peanuts are acceptable...up to 10 lbs.
Amazing as it is and the amp will survive because of it, peanuts are not only a pain but non-compliant for a package this heavy. They can deny a claim. You would not be fine if you were out an amp

This is not just my dislike of peanuts these are UPS rules.

Rant over

Mark

 

[rlord1974]

It's a slow day, so let's keep this conversation alive....

Here this is from UPS themselves. http://www.ups.com/packaging/guidelines?loc=en_US

You will notice that packing peanuts is acceptable fill for the outer box for packages up to 10lbs. After 10lbs and up to 50 lbs the they recommend bubble wrap or foam-in-place, polyethylene foam pads, or other dunnage material.....So please folks, listen up...UPS says peanuts are acceptable for outer box fill for packages up to 10 lbs. Your amps weigh more than that. They have the right to deny as they have their packing suggestions in print.

I actually don't see the 10 lbs to 50 lbs at that link but, regardless, it does not contemplate all of the other protection included in my pack (i.e., the 1" thick layer of dense styrofoam lining the entire inner wall of the outer box, the 2" thick medium density styrofoam lining the entire inner wall of the inner box, as well, to a lesser extent, the bubblewrap).

Also, the key in your comment - and the comments on the UPS website - is that these are just "suggestions". They can't mandate how anything has to be packed, as every item is different, as is every circumstance. They can't point to these suggestions in their own defence, as they are NOT hard requirements.

I know of instances of denied claims because of peanuts..... rlord1974, I think you would lose your court case, as UPS clearly states peanuts are only acceptable up to 10 lbs

I would not argue that they might deny my claim, as they probably would take that approach. When they get served with a notice to appear in small claims court, however,....

1 - They would likely just pay out the claim, as it would cost them more time, effort and resources to defend the court claim than to just pay me the $3,000 in insured value; and
2 - If it did go to court, I maintain, based on the above and my earlier comments, that I would more likely than not prevail. The bottom line is, court judgements around matters like this typically come down to common sense and what a "reasonable person would expect in the given circumstances". Should I, or any external third party reviewing these particular circumstances, expect that, based on the lengths I went to to pack and protect this item, and given that I paid a company that specializes in shipping a hefty $275 to get this package to its intended location, that there is a valid reason for them to deny an insurance claim? I find it VERY hard to believe that ANY judge would rule in UPS' favour. If they did, on what basis? UPS does not specifically mandate how my item should have been packaged - they only suggest. And would a judge look at my packing job and think I didn't take adequate measures to safeguard the item? Not a chance. No way, no how. The judge would conclude that UPS did not apply an appropriate duty of care in its handling of my item, and he/she would find in favour of the claimant - me. And that is exactly why I think they would likely just settle out of court once served with the court papers.

When I'm going off like this I do have a smile on my face

I know you do, Mark! Just like I have a smile on my face as I type this retort!

At the end of the day wouldn't it be nice if all shipping companies just took better care of our stuff?

Agreed!

Peace!

 

[Mark Day]

Here is a cut and paste from their website.

Select a new shipping container with the strength recommended that is at least six inches (15.24 cm) larger than each of the original box's dimensions. Fill the bottom of the new shipping container with two to three inches (5.08 cm to 7.62 cm) of loose fill (for merchandise up to 10 lbs/4.54 kg), bubble sheeting (for merchandise up to 50 lbs/22.68 kg), foam-in-place, polyethylene foam pads, or other dunnage material.

I can hear UPS saying "we are denying your claim because you did not follow our packing recommendations as per our website".

Besides all that UPS crap, please take this into consideration: The nice folks on the other end of the delivery that have to unpack and then repack your amp after we fix it or give you the best mods in the business, kindly, politely and most respectively request that you never use peanuts in your shipment.

Smile on my face, with a great big please

Mark

 

[rlord1974]

Here is a cut and paste from their website.

Select a new shipping container with the strength recommended that is at least six inches (15.24 cm) larger than each of the original box's dimensions. Fill the bottom of the new shipping container with two to three inches (5.08 cm to 7.62 cm) of loose fill (for merchandise up to 10 lbs/4.54 kg), bubble sheeting (for merchandise up to 50 lbs/22.68 kg), foam-in-place, polyethylene foam pads, or other dunnage material.

I can hear UPS saying "we are denying your claim because you did not follow our packing recommendations as per our website".

But this is exactly what I mean. The above anticipates that the ONLY thing between the inner box and the outer box is the peanuts. This is NOT the case in my pack. The entire inner wall of the outer box is lined with dense styrofoam (i.e., foam-in-place). Then, on top of that, I fill the void between the inner box and outer box with 2" of peanuts. Even if they were to argue that the inner box shifted during shipment (which it should not, given the tightly packed peanuts and sheer size of the inner box) and was damaged because it moved to the outer wall, I have a rebuttal. Specifically, even if it shifted, it could have only shifted up against the styrofoam lining the inner wall of the outer box, NOT the wall of the outer box itself.

Besides all that UPS crap, please take this into consideration: The nice folks on the other end of the delivery that have to unpack and then repack your amp after we fix it or give you the best mods in the business, kindly, politely and most respectively request that you never use peanuts in your shipment.

Fair enough. But if that is truly Tone Merchants' policy/position, it should be (a) documented on the Website and (b) clearly communicated to anybody shipping items to you. The first I heard of this was when you posted in the thread, and I just checked the Website and there is no request for people to not use packing peanuts.

I'm now going to step down from my pulpit and go and *gasp* play some guitar!

Cheers, Mark and all!

 

[guitarmike]

It's a slow day, so let's keep this conversation alive....

Here this is from UPS themselves. http://www.ups.com/packaging/guidelines?loc=en_US

You will notice that packing peanuts is acceptable fill for the outer box for packages up to 10lbs. After 10lbs and up to 50 lbs the they recommend bubble wrap or foam-in-place, polyethylene foam pads, or other dunnage material.....So please folks, listen up...UPS says peanuts are acceptable for outer box fill for packages up to 10 lbs. Your amps weigh more than that. They have the right to deny as they have their packing suggestions in print.

I actually don't see the 10 lbs to 50 lbs at that link but, regardless, it does not contemplate all of the other protection included in my pack (i.e., the 1" thick layer of dense styrofoam lining the entire inner wall of the outer box, the 2" thick medium density styrofoam lining the entire inner wall of the inner box, as well, to a lesser extent, the bubblewrap).

Also, the key in your comment - and the comments on the UPS website - is that these are just "suggestions". They can't mandate how anything has to be packed, as every item is different, as is every circumstance. They can't point to these suggestions in their own defence, as they are NOT hard requirements.

I know of instances of denied claims because of peanuts..... rlord1974, I think you would lose your court case, as UPS clearly states peanuts are only acceptable up to 10 lbs

I would not argue that they might deny my claim, as they probably would take that approach. When they get served with a notice to appear in small claims court, however,....

1 - They would likely just pay out the claim, as it would cost them more time, effort and resources to defend the court claim than to just pay me the $3,000 in insured value; and
2 - If it did go to court, I maintain, based on the above and my earlier comments, that I would more likely than not prevail. The bottom line is, court judgements around matters like this typically come down to common sense and what a "reasonable person would expect in the given circumstances". Should I, or any external third party reviewing these particular circumstances, expect that, based on the lengths I went to to pack and protect this item, and given that I paid a company that specializes in shipping a hefty $275 to get this package to its intended location, that there is a valid reason for them to deny an insurance claim? I find it VERY hard to believe that ANY judge would rule in UPS' favour. If they did, on what basis? UPS does not specifically mandate how my item should have been packaged - they only suggest. And would a judge look at my packing job and think I didn't take adequate measures to safeguard the item? Not a chance. No way, no how. The judge would conclude that UPS did not apply an appropriate duty of care in its handling of my item, and he/she would find in favour of the claimant - me. And that is exactly why I think they would likely just settle out of court once served with the court papers.

When I'm going off like this I do have a smile on my face

I know you do, Mark! Just like I have a smile on my face as I type this retort!

At the end of the day wouldn't it be nice if all shipping companies just took better care of our stuff?

Agreed!

Peace!

Recently I sold an old Marrantz receiver and it was damaged by UPS. Here is how I packed it:



UPS busted the wood cabinet. They looked at it and paid $186, it sold for $355. I have to believe that the way your amp was packed they will pay if it is damaged.

 

[King Guitar]

Here is the deal, UPS and FedEX will deny all claims the first time submitted. 80% of people will give up on the first try and this saves them a ton of money. For the people that raise hell then you need to show them you packed it right and they say they will send someone to look at it. That only happens 50% of the time and then you have to try to chase them to follow up. If you can hang in there for 6-7 calls back and faxing paid sales receipts you will eventually get paid on the claim but they make you fight for it.

The deny till you die. If you retry you will get by.

Moral of the story is do not rely on the shipping companies insurance to bail you out if it gets jacked up, they make the decisions and they are not impartial. What they want is for you to pay them to pack it at their UPS Store or FedEx/Kinkos at a crazy inflated price and than pay them to ship. If you do that you will go broke but if it breaks they are screwed because they packed it. Its all a shell game and they win 99% of the time.

For the record, I cringe when I get packing peanuts as well but I would rather have that then some dirty sweat socks on the side and a hefty bag which is not uncommon. The safest way to roll is to ship in a road case but I digress.

B

 

[rlord1974]

Here is the deal, UPS and FedEX will deny all claims the first time submitted. 80% of people will give up on the first try and this saves them a ton of money. For the people that raise hell then you need to show them you packed it right and they say they will send someone to look at it. That only happens 50% of the time and then you have to try to chase them to follow up. If you can hang in there for 6-7 calls back and faxing paid sales receipts you will eventually get paid on the claim but they make you fight for it.

The deny till you die. If you retry you will get by.

Moral of the story is do not rely on the shipping companies insurance to bail you out if it gets jacked up, they make the decisions and they are not impartial. What they want is for you to pay them to pack it at their UPS Store or FedEx/Kinkos at a crazy inflated price and than pay them to ship. If you do that you will go broke but if it breaks they are screwed because they packed it. Its all a shell game and they win 99% of the time.

For the record, I cringe when I get packing peanuts as well but I would rather have that then some dirty sweat socks on the side and a hefty bag which is not uncommon. The safest way to roll is to ship in a road case but I digress.

B

I agree 100% on all accounts.

I have a fair bit of experience with respect to insurance and the claims payment process, but won't get into the background details of why this is. However, I know for FACT that almost every insurance company - be it Life, Property & Casualty, Consumer, Business, etc. - takes the approach that you deny the claim first and then look into it. They do this because they know this will eliminate 50% of their claims, as the claimants will just think they're out of luck and swallow the loss. Of the remaining 50%, around half of them will retain a lawyer who will explain the costs of litigating the situation and the likelihood that the claimant still might walk away with significantly less than anticipated. In the face of these legal costs, this group also typically falls off and swallows the loss. This leaves about 25% of the original claimants in the game. They'll keep pressing the insurance company for their payout. When pressed continually, the insurer will look for mitigating circumstances to reduce the claim amount significantly from what the insured amount originally was.

Insurance is the oldest and biggest scam of them all. It's sad really, as so many of us feel like we need to purchase it to protect our families, our business interests and our personal assets. The reality is, when it comes time to make a claim, the insurer does not want to pay up - at least not to the extent you THOUGHT they would.

EDIT

OH WAIT - I don't agree with 100%! Although shipping in a road case will protect the amp from cosmetic damage over a regular, uneventful journey, if that road case falls off a conveyor belt and drops 15 feet to the floor, the headshell will still be cracked to hell and the amp likely won't work. There's next to no shock absorption in a road case built for an amp head. Two inches of foam between the outer plywood wall and the head isn't going to protect the amp from a significant fall.

 

[rlord1974]

Oh yeah, and I would prefer packing peanuts over some of what I have seen in the past as well: unused diapers kids have grown out of, toilet paper rolls or tubes, magazines, newspapers, old t-shirts, socks, etc. NOT COOL.

Yeah, I spend a lot of money on my packing jobs. It's because I know the purchaser has spent a lot on the item they're buying from me as well and he/she deserves to get it in the condition it was described as being in. If you're not willing to spend the money to pack an item properly, sell it locally. I don't want it.

'nuff said.

 

[Mark Day]

Peanuts at the moment are a merely nuisance and pet peeve of ours. We will be doing a review of our shipping policies. We have NOT turned anything down because of peanuts, but our disgusting foul language has increased and I may start drinking, anyone who knows me will tell you that I do not drink AT ALL Dave and Rob already drink but that may increase due to peanuts(turds). For the time being we are requesting politely that packing turds(peanuts) NOT be used. We are in the midst of a total reworking of our website.

Shipping policies will be added to the new website I will also post a thread here indicating those policies. If you do a google search there are many companies including music related that insist on a NO PEANUT POLICY lol.

I'm allergic to the fucking things.

Thanks for listening to my rant almost entirely free from foul language



Mark

 

[rlord1974]

No worries! And sorry Dave has asked the "new guy" to take care of unpacking it! Regardless of the intense and burning anger that you amass while corralling all of the peanuts, please handle with care.....

Cheers,

Rob

 

[Mark Day]

No worries! And sorry Dave has asked the "new guy" to take care of unpacking it! Regardless of the intense and burning anger that you amass while corralling all of the peanuts, please handle with care.....

Cheers,

Rob

Dave does lots of unpacking and hates peanuts just as I do lol.

We are a professional shop and we always handle with care, always.



Mark

 

[King Guitar]

So I cant send you new Matchless wrapped in a golf towel?

 

[rlord1974]

So I cant send you new Matchless wrapped in a golf towel?

Hmmmmm Maybe wrapped in a golf towel and a bath robe would suffice?......