ASCAP B.S.

[Code001]

A songwriter has to make a living too. And shouldn't watch other people get rich off their work.

Has that ever actually happened?

 

[degenaro]

A songwriter has to make a living too. And shouldn't watch other people get rich off their work.

Has that ever actually happened?

Uhem...Led Zeppelin....

 

[Code001]

A songwriter has to make a living too. And shouldn't watch other people get rich off their work.

Has that ever actually happened?

Uhem...Led Zeppelin....

I didn't know Led Zeppelin made albums and played covers of other people's songs.

Hint: I'm talking about people just playing covers. I'm not talking about people stealing other people's music.

 

[degenaro]

No fight with you Ed, but most of the cover bands I know don't even break even. So, yes they get a pay check, but they are in reality playing for free. If you don't agree that's cool. But live music clubs promote music. If they weren't there then in My opinion it would eventually hurt music. Again, I don't know of one songwriter that is losing any $ because some cover band is playing one of their songs. Whether you think it promotes it or not, it certainly isn't hurting the artist. If I covered one of your tunes right now it would only help get your name out there. I venture to guess that most of my audience hasn't heard your tunes. And that isn't a shot at you. Popularity has nothing to do with quality. I have already said I respect you and your music. If I played your CD in my restaurant it would promote your music.

If you don't agree, cool. I'm just a little guy that will get expensed out of playing. And if I'm one of many then the entire music industry, including gear manufactures will suffer. I venture there are more amps sold to "weekend warriors" then "artist". I don't see the sense in a songwriter sweating some shmo who works 40+ hours a week going out and playing on the weekend 'til 2:00 in the morning simply because he loves the songwriter's music. The shmo isn't doing it to make $. He's doing it because he loves to play.

No fight here...just a discussion.

There are mosdef more amps sold to weekend warriors.
But here is what I don't get, why would any one ever play in a cover band and merely break even? I mean where is the reason for it? The only reason I can find to play live juke box is that it pays.

Simply because of love of music. If music isn't your profession original music is a hard thing to keep going and actually play out. Most guys I know actually don't even break even if you add gear into the equation. I see both sides. It's a tough deal. A songwriter has to make a living too. And shouldn't watch other people get rich off their work. Always two sides.

I get that, but why do it for free?
As for figuring in gear...if you want a gaggle of high end guitars that's one thing. But playing covers and then discountng the pay because yo spent 3k+ on each guitar isn't how it works.

 

[Code001]

I get that, but why do it for free?
As for figuring in gear...if you want a gaggle of high end guitars that's one thing. But playing covers and then discountng the pay because yo spent 3k+ on each guitar isn't how it works.

I addressed this earlier:

Maybe because I enjoy playing guitar and don't care about the money?

 

[degenaro]

A songwriter has to make a living too. And shouldn't watch other people get rich off their work.

Has that ever actually happened?

Uhem...Led Zeppelin....

I didn't know Led Zeppelin made albums and played covers of other people's songs.

Hint: I'm talking about people just playing covers. I'm not talking about people stealing other people's music.

Well then I guess it hasn't happened since the writer of any tune that has success, regardless who does it will get paid unless he gets ripped off.

 

[degenaro]

I get that, but why do it for free?
As for figuring in gear...if you want a gaggle of high end guitars that's one thing. But playing covers and then discountng the pay because yo spent 3k+ on each guitar isn't how it works.

I addressed this earlier:

Maybe because I enjoy playing guitar and don't care about the money?

So, just to make sure I get this....you prefer playing say Sweet Home Alabama for free, rather then playing something less trite, and/or getting paid in doing so?
Sorry, I can't relate to that. If I play hat kinda stuff I wanna see green.
But this opens a whole nother direction for this thread of musicians loosing venues to play at. By your logic it's okay that weekend warriors take gigs from working musicians because they have day gis and don't need to get paid...
That's in my book way worse then ASCAP taking 2 bucks from a venue per gig.

 

[Code001]

So now I'm not allowed to play gigs because I have a day job, and it might take away from other musicians?

 

[degenaro]

So now I'm not allowed to play gigs because I have a day job, and it might take away from other musicians?

You can do whatever you please, but when folks complain that venues will be closing down live music because ASCAP wanting 2 bucks a gig to pay the writers that came up with the stuff that gets covered, yet they're okay with basically workin for free and seriously undercutting working musos I gotta wonder about entitlement.

And for the record, I have a day gig, pay my musicians union dues, pay my licenses and charge for gigs...

 

[Shark Diver]

No fight with you Ed, but most of the cover bands I know don't even break even. So, yes they get a pay check, but they are in reality playing for free. If you don't agree that's cool. But live music clubs promote music. If they weren't there then in My opinion it would eventually hurt music. Again, I don't know of one songwriter that is losing any $ because some cover band is playing one of their songs. Whether you think it promotes it or not, it certainly isn't hurting the artist. If I covered one of your tunes right now it would only help get your name out there. I venture to guess that most of my audience hasn't heard your tunes. And that isn't a shot at you. Popularity has nothing to do with quality. I have already said I respect you and your music. If I played your CD in my restaurant it would promote your music.

If you don't agree, cool. I'm just a little guy that will get expensed out of playing. And if I'm one of many then the entire music industry, including gear manufactures will suffer. I venture there are more amps sold to "weekend warriors" then "artist". I don't see the sense in a songwriter sweating some shmo who works 40+ hours a week going out and playing on the weekend 'til 2:00 in the morning simply because he loves the songwriter's music. The shmo isn't doing it to make $. He's doing it because he loves to play.

No fight here...just a discussion.

There are mosdef more amps sold to weekend warriors.
But here is what I don't get, why would any one ever play in a cover band and merely break even? I mean where is the reason for it? The only reason I can find to play live juke box is that it pays.

Simply because of love of music. If music isn't your profession original music is a hard thing to keep going and actually play out. Most guys I know actually don't even break even if you add gear into the equation. I see both sides. It's a tough deal. A songwriter has to make a living too. And shouldn't watch other people get rich off their work. Always two sides.

I get that, but why do it for free?
As for figuring in gear...if you want a gaggle of high end guitars that's one thing. But playing covers and then discountng the pay because yo spent 3k+ on each guitar isn't how it works.

But that $3K guitar makes me play and sound better.

You do it for free because that is the system we are in. If I could make a living at it I would. It is a hobby. Like SCUBA diving or hang gliding. I will have to abide by whatever the courts say. But I will always think that it's sad that I am simply playing a song as a hobby and I have to worry about someone thinking I'm ripping them off. If I go diving and do a triple Lyndy, and people paid to be at the venue, I would sure hope Rodney Dangerfield isn't coming after me for a few $$$.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8zLSGvV454

 

[degenaro]

No fight with you Ed, but most of the cover bands I know don't even break even. So, yes they get a pay check, but they are in reality playing for free. If you don't agree that's cool. But live music clubs promote music. If they weren't there then in My opinion it would eventually hurt music. Again, I don't know of one songwriter that is losing any $ because some cover band is playing one of their songs. Whether you think it promotes it or not, it certainly isn't hurting the artist. If I covered one of your tunes right now it would only help get your name out there. I venture to guess that most of my audience hasn't heard your tunes. And that isn't a shot at you. Popularity has nothing to do with quality. I have already said I respect you and your music. If I played your CD in my restaurant it would promote your music.

If you don't agree, cool. I'm just a little guy that will get expensed out of playing. And if I'm one of many then the entire music industry, including gear manufactures will suffer. I venture there are more amps sold to "weekend warriors" then "artist". I don't see the sense in a songwriter sweating some shmo who works 40+ hours a week going out and playing on the weekend 'til 2:00 in the morning simply because he loves the songwriter's music. The shmo isn't doing it to make $. He's doing it because he loves to play.

No fight here...just a discussion.

There are mosdef more amps sold to weekend warriors.
But here is what I don't get, why would any one ever play in a cover band and merely break even? I mean where is the reason for it? The only reason I can find to play live juke box is that it pays.

Simply because of love of music. If music isn't your profession original music is a hard thing to keep going and actually play out. Most guys I know actually don't even break even if you add gear into the equation. I see both sides. It's a tough deal. A songwriter has to make a living too. And shouldn't watch other people get rich off their work. Always two sides.

I get that, but why do it for free?
As for figuring in gear...if you want a gaggle of high end guitars that's one thing. But playing covers and then discountng the pay because yo spent 3k+ on each guitar isn't how it works.

But that $3K guitar makes me play and sound better.

You do it for free because that is the system we are in. If I could make a living at it I would. It is a hobby. Like SCUBA diving or hang gliding. I will have to abide by whatever the courts say. But I will always think that it's sad that I am simply playing a song as a hobby and I have to worry about someone thinking I'm ripping them off. If I go diving and do a triple Lyndy, and people paid to be at the venue, I would sure hope Rodney Dangerfield isn't coming after me for a few $$$.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8zLSGvV454

Why do you think you have to pay? You don't. But the venue has to cough up the insane amount of 2 bucks for you gig. Now seeing that you don't get paid one would think they could afford 2 bucks on live music...

How are we in a system where you have to gig for free? We're still talking covers right?

 

[degenaro]

Also about that playing for free, lets say your day gig was something...like running an IT department...and some kid out of college would love doing IT and would offer to do your job for free...I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy?
That is what gets jobs outsourced, some one wanting to do supposedly the same work for less.
So, while I appreciate that we all want to do what we want to do, there is mos def a direct cause and effect for this.

In the end it likely won't matter since soon enough most live music will be completely replaced by DJs.

 

[Code001]

Also about that playing for free, lets say your day gig was something...like running an IT department...and some kid out of college would love doing IT and would offer to do your job for free...I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy?
That is what gets jobs outsourced, some one wanting to do supposedly the same work for less.
So, while I appreciate that we all want to do what we want to do, there is mos def a direct cause and effect for this.

In the end it likely won't matter since soon enough most live music will be completely replaced by DJs.

I've been doing IT for free for decades. The difference is that these gigs aren't full time. It's more like a once a month thing, if we're lucky. You can't compare it to a full time job.

 

[scottosan]

What is the difference between a coverband and a tribute band? I have always wondered.

A tribute band plays just 1 band's music and generally dresses or trys to look like the band they are tributing. A cover band plays many different band's music and general doesn't copy one band's look on stage.

I understand you not liking cover bands, but in my area if you want to play out, you have to be a cover band, people don't want to hear original music. Its very hard to get a gig anyway.

As for the ASCAP, I think if they can enforce equally businesses having prerecorded music as well as live bands, that would be fine. As long as they are consistent and there is no additional cost for having live bands. IE its the same cost and enforcement for a DJ as a band.

It's not that I don't like cover bands, I like them if they are as good or better than the original, but unfortunately most aren't.

 

[Shark Diver]

Also about that playing for free, lets say your day gig was something...like running an IT department...and some kid out of college would love doing IT and would offer to do your job for free...I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy?
That is what gets jobs outsourced, some one wanting to do supposedly the same work for less.
So, while I appreciate that we all want to do what we want to do, there is mos def a direct cause and effect for this.

In the end it likely won't matter since soon enough most live music will be completely replaced by DJs.

Which is a whole other issue out here. More musicians than outlets to play, so supply and demand drives the compensation down. I'm not saying the bands are playing for free. But, if they make $75 bucks each and drive an hour and a half to get there in their truck, after strings, batteries, etc. they really don't make anything. But I'm sure some guys play for free because it's the only way they can play.

And your right if that kid did my job for free and I lost mine, I wouldn't be happy. Not sure how to stop that though. Best solution really seems to me to create more desire for live music venues. Get people back in the clubs with good music and fun atmosphere. It would create a demand for bands, which would keep all of us busy. Which would bring me back to the original point that the more cost added to venues, the less there will be.

 

[Shark Diver]

]It's not that I don't like cover bands, I like them if they are as good or better than the original, but unfortunately most aren't.

Really? I've seen a lot of concerts, and most original bands sound like shit live. I could never get away with sounding as bad as they do. On top of it I have to sound good at 12 different styles. They just have to sound good on Their songs. And that seems taxing for quite a few bands.

 

[Anonymous]

Signed bands / their management pay big bucks to be in rotation on the radio/clear channel. It makes or breaks a band in general. Some people think that vh1 or cmt play these vids because they are popular/ for free Its been pay to play since the 50`s

 

[blackba]

It's not that I don't like cover bands, I like them if they are as good or better than the original, but unfortunately most aren't.

How often is the copy better than the original on anything, very rarely.

It just comes down to in my area, that you can play covers and get paid or play originals and not find any place to perform. Some of us haven't played a million gigs like Ed, so we jump at the chance to play out, regardless of how much we are getting.

There are a few instances where I have played for free. One was opening for a larger act. The big act got paid, but we didn't. I have also played at a party for a friend for free. And then there is the bennefit concert, where the money goes to some cause.

I currently play for free every week for Worship.

 

[stephen sawall]

Led Zep was never sued for the music. Jimmy changed around the stuff enough that did not happen. The thing was only lyrics. Robert was the one who did this and Jimmy was not happy at all when he found out that the lyric were not Roberts.

Just to make the record strait about what happened.

 

[Anonymous]

Shark/ the whole club scene died around 1986. If you can handle being a lounge lizard so be it. Hell even in Raleigh n,c there were Hard Rock clubs open tues thru sunday. DUI LAWS came in and then the internet and it has been downhill since

Also about that playing for free, lets say your day gig was something...like running an IT department...and some kid out of college would love doing IT and would offer to do your job for free...I'm guessing you wouldn't be happy?
That is what gets jobs outsourced, some one wanting to do supposedly the same work for less.
So, while I appreciate that we all want to do what we want to do, there is mos def a direct cause and effect for this.

In the end it likely won't matter since soon enough most live music will be completely replaced by DJs.

Which is a whole other issue out here. More musicians than outlets to play, so supply and demand drives the compensation down. I'm not saying the bands are playing for free. But, if they make $75 bucks each and drive an hour and a half to get there in their truck, after strings, batteries, etc. they really don't make anything. But I'm sure some guys play for free because it's the only way they can play.

And your right if that kid did my job for free and I lost mine, I wouldn't be happy. Not sure how to stop that though. Best solution really seems to me to create more desire for live music venues. Get people back in the clubs with good music and fun atmosphere. It would create a demand for bands, which would keep all of us busy. Which would bring me back to the original point that the more cost added to venues, the less there will be.