Brass trem block

[VonBonfire]

Fat aluminum block remains installed (because it sounds good) and I still haven’t ordered strings to try different blocks. I reworked the fat brass block targeting 280grams and it came out great. Also working on another pile of blocks.

While deep in this hole it naturally occurred to me saddles can be changed without changing strings, so I made block saddles. Three sets - one each made from ‘Ordnance’ Brass, Copper & Aluminum. I couldn’t source such a thing as ‘bell brass’, but VB, thank you for educating me on “bell metal” (available in ingots). That’s legit af actually, but it is bronze (ie: copper/tin).

Further, after reading your description of the electroforming process used to create horns (and presumably other complex shapes) I immediately decided to make saddles from C110 oxygen free copper - it’s 99.9% pure. It machines like bubble gum and they look awful on my guitar but they sound pretty amazing with the aluminum block, plus, they will age beautifully.

I’m honestly pretty blown away after spending a good bit of time playing yesterday. In sum, the fat aluminum brings brightness & articulation without fizz and the copper brings the bells with solid lows. Compared to the bent steel saddles, my lows seem tighter, upper mids are glorious, meaty raunch is there and highs are slightly rolled-off, but still sweet w/bite. Most notable change overall is the quick attack and percussiveness I’m getting (especially appreciated using lots of distortion)..that’s new. Acoustically the guitar’s always been better than good, now it’s over the top good and also sounds amazing through my clean channel in all pickup positions. We’ll see after a few days if my initial impressions stick. It’s quite a bit different than my stock guitar overall and it’s been a trip to really hear the differences first-hand while essentially re-building the stock trem using legit machined hardware. The additional mass of copper/block vs bent steel only makes already good sustain from the aluminum block just better (fuller).

View attachment 449488View attachment 449490View attachment 449491

WOW!

This is amazing stuff man, can't believe you are going to these lengths!

I did google up a source for bell brass (bronze as you said). Not sure if they have what you'd be looking for for an experiment like this but it does say they offer it in a few different forms. Good luck with all your testing and again, thanks for sharing the data with us!!!

https://www.belmontmetals.com/produ...crHiwvmo_ch2iWpNa7sYXnmZpg_ckbVME-AA6BUI9clov

 

[Scot]

Very nice job kimg

Thank you.

VB this project's been just the excuse I need to fire up some equipment that's been idle for awhile, not to mention an excuse to spend time in the shop doing what I love. Not a problem at all to share. I'd love to go into the block business..lol. Thank you for the Belmont link - that's what I came up with, too. Those ingots are cool af.

 

[VonBonfire]

Thank you.

VB this project's been just the excuse I need to fire up some equipment that's been idle for awhile, not to mention an excuse to spend time in the shop doing what I love. Not a problem at all to share. I'd love to go into the block business..lol. Thank you for the Belmont link - that's what I came up with, too. Those ingots are cool af.

Those are great excuses!!!

I'm interested to see how long those copper bridge pieces hold up. If they are real soft they might develop burrs that result in breakages. Or not. They seem beefy enough to go the distance. I've never seen anyone actually follow through with this kind of experimenting the way you already have so it seems like you are entering uncharted waters. I wish you much luck and success with this and can't wait to hear more feedback on what you are doing!

 

[VonBonfire]

Doing any more experimenting lately @Scot ?

 

[Scot]

Doing any more experimenting lately @Scot ?

Thanks for asking, VB. The past several weeks I’ve had a steel block installed onto a trem plate made from the same billet of material. The assembled trem weighs 347g & after installI I could instantly hear what differed from the preceding skinny brass block/al saddles/oem plate (ie: the wah effect).

Overall steel sounds evenly balanced across all strings w/solid note fundamentals - great sustain, harmonics, feel etc. Top end is good but not quite as sweetly biting compared to brass and not quite as 'airy' (for lack of a better term) w/aluminum. Albeit slight, the steel block seems to bring out that cocked-wah sound associated w/Dimarzio pu’s (which I’m using) so I’d guess that’s a mid frequency the steel trem accentuates?

I want to assemble another trem to put the brass block and oem trem (bent saddles) up against this one. The biggest takeaway for me thus far is that it’s important to have a good sounding guitar to begin with b/c honestly, I could live with any of the combinations I’ve tried - except for the brick of brass I used at the outset - turns out weight’s a thing..lol

Here’s a few pics of the steel trem. The plate and block are made from some nice normalized US tool steel from like the 50’s or 60’s and I cold-blued the trem plate. I didn’t case harden the plate or its knife edges but will do just that if warranted. So far there’s virtually no wear on the edges at all after a month and I’ve been torturing the trem mercilessly. It stays in tune much better than I would have predicted - quite good in fact and as you can see I used a FR push-in arm. Feels great and instantly responsive - flutters like a champ.

 

[Scot]

About a three wks ago I reinstalled my stock trem to baseline once again. It’s been awhile.

No doubt after trying several combos, the oem zinc block dulls some highs, but not in a bad way. Actually, one of the things I was most surprised with after getting my strat was how warm it actually is, but still bright. Not plinky or twangy at all if properly s/u. The zinc block’s conducive to that warmth on my guitar for sure. It’s one of the ‘fat’ mim zinc blocks.

Overall I generally like aluminum and brass blocks the most, I think. Block saddles, too. Seems I anchor my right hand more consistently using them. Time will tell. My thoughts about the FR-armed steel trem above remain. That all steel trem definitely brings out a hardness or something from my strat. Not bad, just more of a frequency shift and a little more in your face. Overall balanced sounding but also a little twangy on the high strings depending on playing style. No discernible increase in attack which surprised me a little.

Since removing that trem, I made (and tried) an aluminum one-pc tremolo. But Rev1 failed..lol. It needs a few tweaks due slight binding. I’m an R&D guy so nothing new. I endeavored a simple but durable 1pc aluminum trem that works with the stock 2pt screw-in posts found on a pl2 strat. I may abandon that and make new posts to work w/it instead. Simple design - two hardened pins engage the posts on rev1 but they’re a little big for the stock groove despite having smooth action. Will tweak.

A traditional 6-hole trem doesn’t present the same durability problem so I’m thinking about making a few. Anybody here have an original 1pc fender trem from the 70's? I’d love to know a couple specific dimensions.

 

[lester]

There's a guy Stone Tone Products, has a manufacturer's forum on here as a matter of fact, claims all kinds of stuff about his blocks and there's been people that have used them, that used to post here, that absolutely says there is a big difference and his thing does work. Maybe throw one of those into the equation

.

 

[Scot]

@VB - you asked about my copper saddles, specifically.

I’m eager to reinstall those and to your question, yes and no. No burrs per se. But, I’m dissatisfied with my string groove despite deliberate cuts through the saddles. Other materials haven’t presented the same issue using the same geometry because the strings simply burnish rather than push. Coppers malleability is indeed an issue but I’ll resolve that with more string clearance. I do think they’ll hold up when I’m done to the extent the material itself will last. A few strokes of a file from time to time would keep them fresh for quite awhile if I have it my way. They sounded really, really good to me but returning to pitch reliably when using the trem? Not so much - will tweak.

They are aging well, IMO and I could always install a hard pin through at that critical spot, but would they still be copper saddles?

 

[VonBonfire]

@VB - you asked about my copper saddles, specifically.

I’m eager to reinstall those and to your question, yes and no. No burrs per se. But, I’m dissatisfied with my string groove despite deliberate cuts through the saddles. Other materials haven’t presented the same issue using the same geometry because the strings simply burnish rather than push. Coppers malleability is indeed an issue but I’ll resolve that with more string clearance. I do think they’ll hold up when I’m done to the extent the material itself will last. A few strokes of a file from time to time would keep them fresh for quite awhile if I have it my way. They sounded really, really good to me but returning to pitch reliably when using the trem? Not so much - will tweak.

They are aging well, IMO and I could always install a hard pin through at that critical spot, but would they still be copper saddles?

View attachment 462857

Have you considered whipping up a set with some harder alloys? I was just googling and it says that beryllium copper is the hardest copper alloy, on par with tempered steel. I'm sure it'd affect the tone vs soft pure copper but there might be a nice middle ground to be found between pure copper and steel.

 

[Music&Chaos]

Fat aluminum block remains installed (because it sounds good) and I still haven’t ordered strings to try different blocks. I reworked the fat brass block targeting 280grams and it came out great. Also working on another pile of blocks.

While deep in this hole it naturally occurred to me saddles can be changed without changing strings, so I made block saddles. Three sets - one each made from ‘Ordnance’ Brass, Copper & Aluminum. I couldn’t source such a thing as ‘bell brass’, but VB, thank you for educating me on “bell metal” (available in ingots). That’s legit af actually, but it is bronze (ie: copper/tin).

Further, after reading your description of the electroforming process used to create horns (and presumably other complex shapes) I immediately decided to make saddles from C110 oxygen free copper - it’s 99.9% pure. It machines like bubble gum and they look awful on my guitar but they sound pretty amazing with the aluminum block, plus, they will age beautifully.

I’m honestly pretty blown away after spending a good bit of time playing yesterday. In sum, the fat aluminum brings brightness & articulation without fizz and the copper brings the bells with solid lows. Compared to the bent steel saddles, my lows seem tighter, upper mids are glorious, meaty raunch is there and highs are slightly rolled-off, but still sweet w/bite. Most notable change overall is the quick attack and percussiveness I’m getting (especially appreciated using lots of distortion)..that’s new. Acoustically the guitar’s always been better than good, now it’s over the top good and also sounds amazing through my clean channel in all pickup positions. We’ll see after a few days if my initial impressions stick. It’s quite a bit different than my stock guitar overall and it’s been a trip to really hear the differences first-hand while essentially re-building the stock trem using legit machined hardware. The additional mass of copper/block vs bent steel only makes already good sustain from the aluminum block just better (fuller).

View attachment 449488View attachment 449490View attachment 449491

I love threads like this and the work put into this is really impressive.

 

[Scot]

I admire your threads, too M&C - thanks for the nice comments.

@VB - not averse to trying just about any material but for now keeping it to matls on hand. I have a set of bronze blanks made-up along with good steel for more saddles but haven't yet had the time to finish them off.

I suspect Bronze will be the goods - the stuff I have is sintered and also loaded with oil and carbon (pencil lead). Although porous, it's hard. A fine surface finish will close the pores while still allowing oil to shed and it shouldn't break strings despite its porosity. Theoretically, it may be the perfect material, yet prone to chipping (maybe?).

 

[VonBonfire]

I suspect Bronze will be the goods - the stuff I have is sintered and also loaded with oil and carbon (pencil lead). Although porous, it's hard. A fine surface finish will close the pores while still allowing oil to shed and it shouldn't break strings despite its porosity. Theoretically, it may be the perfect material, yet prone to chipping (maybe?).

I can't see a bridge piece being subject to chipping but I suppose if a very porous section of it were to sit directly under the string it may be possible? Looking forward to seeing more of your results. This has been a fantastic thread and very generous of you to share your experiences as they happen.