Considering ordering some Mullard reissue CV4004 tubes

[BABMusic]

Was wondering if it was worth it buying the CV4004 tubes as I've read those are less likely to be microphonic. The plan is to to use these for V1 and V2 in my Friedman. The CV4004 are only slightly more expensive than the 12ax7, but I was wondering if there really is much difference in tone and microphonics. Any of you guys have experiences with them? Just looking for something different than just JJ tubes. Don't like EH very much for preamp and don't like Tungsol.

 

[bennyslo]

Personally I would just get some Ruby graded JJ's or Shuguangs. Usually more reliable and sound good.

 

[harddriver]

Was wondering if it was worth it buying the CV4004 tubes as I've read those are less likely to be microphonic. The plan is to to use these for V1 and V2 in my Friedman. The CV4004 are only slightly more expensive than the 12ax7, but I was wondering if there really is much difference in tone and microphonics. Any of you guys have experiences with them? Just looking for something different than just JJ tubes. Don't like EH very much for preamp and don't like Tungsol.

I have a 1963 Holy Grail Mullard Blackburn 12ax7 and I found the one I had in V1 of my Marshall to be a very round, warm sounding kind of dark tube in V1 more in line with AC/DC tones which didn't care for. New Tungsol's won't hold up in the V2 cathode follower position due to high voltage at least the older ones I just assume the newer ones haven't changed.

I have also tried the modern EH Mullard CV4004 in my Marshall and didn't really care for them but George at Metropolous used the standard Mullard reissue 12ax7's in his Metroplexes and I can't say they sounded bad, so YMMV.

I can't say what a real CV4004 Mullard sounds like but I seem to remember these were the heavy duty military version so they might sound different. IMHO unless you really want to try one out I would look at an NOS Chinese Square getter tube 6N4J 12ax7, they have some nice bite and clarity without being nasty and usually are low microphonics for V1. Even the 9th generation Chinese 12ax7's are good tubes for Marshalls, I usually get the Ruby AC5's from Dougs tubes but other places have them.

In my RT modded cascaded 72 I'm running either a oldstock Chinese 6N4J or a Ruby Chinese 9th generation AC5 in V1, RFT 12ax7 in V2 ( cathode follower) and a NOS Sylvania 12ax7 in V3 and I rolled alot of tubes in V1 and settled on the Chinese. I've also hear good things about the EH7025's which I bought some but haven't tried them out yet. All my old EI 12ax7's were highly microphonic.

Other than the Chinese I'd say go for a Tungsram or Brimar 12ax7 for you V1 if you want old NOS stuff.

 

[Nigel]

New Sensor Russian tubes are not Mullards.

It’s like calling a JJ E34L a Mullard EL34.

Utter nonsense. They may sound similar but are completely different, even if the same tooling was used, and in the case of the NS tubes, they are NOT whereas the JJ factory actually bought the tooling from Mullard.

Real short plate Mullards are hit or miss, some too trebley/bitey.

JJ’s will be closer sonically to Mullards than anything NS offers.

There is no substitute for the goods, however. But if you must, JJ’s. The ECC803s is closer to the real Mullard tone than any other modern tube, and the ECC83s sounds almost as good as a NOS Mullard short plate. ALMOST! Kind of like McDonalds chicken nuggets compared to mom's tendies.

My advice: Get a real Mullard long plate 12AX7, F91/F92 halo getter for V1 for starters and from there let your intuition guide you from having heard the source of all the hype.

 

[Floyd Eye]

New Sensor Russian tubes are not Mullards.

It’s like calling a JJ E34L a Mullard EL34.

Utter nonsense. They may sound similar but are completely different, even if the same tooling was used, and in the case of the NS tubes, they are NOT whereas the JJ factory actually bought the tooling from Mullard.

Real short plate Mullards are hit or miss, some too trebley/bitey.

JJ’s will be closer sonically to Mullards than anything NS offers.

There is no substitute for the goods, however. But if you must, JJ’s. The ECC803s is closer to the real Mullard tone than any other modern tube, and the ECC83s sounds better than my NOS Mullard short plate.

My advice: Get a real Mullard long plate 12AX7, F91/F92 halo getter for V1 for starters and from there let your intuition guide you from having heard the source of all the hype.

Yes. Get the real deal.

 

[BABMusic]

Thanks all, I wasn't aware of many of these points, especially about Mullards not being real Mullards anymore.

Are Svetlana 12ax7 tubes still good?

 

[CDawg]

EH 7025 is a quiet tube made currently but you've said you didn't like EH or Tung Sol so it's doubtful you'd like that or Svetlana (there's NOS Svetlana/Winged C 12AX7 as well which is different) since they're all from the same company: New Sensor.

Go buy NOS tubes from as many different companies as possible so you can learn what you like.

Anything specific you are trying to accomplish in tube rolling?

 

[Frehley12]

I bought a few CV4004s. Not as bright as Tung-sols. I really liked the CV4004s. Nice crunch with more mids and a rounder low end than TSs. However, I LOVE the JJECC83MG. Less gain than the 2 above but the mids are more present and lively. If you don't like the standard JJECC83s because it's "dark, try the MG.

 

[Nigel]

Thanks all, I wasn't aware of many of these points, especially about Mullards not being real Mullards anymore.

Are Svetlana 12ax7 tubes still good?

Are they also made by New Sensor now? They all carry a similar signature. If you don’t like one, you’ll probably not like the others.

Cheapest way into a genuine Mullard tone experience is a Mitchum production 80’s CV4024 12AT7. They are great for Reverb/FX/PI too.

Oddly enough, I must admit I ran all EHX 12AX7’s once, and under a mic, it was great. If I sit and listen alone, the things I don’t like dominate the experience, however.

 

[harddriver]

EH 7025 is a quiet tube made currently but you've said you didn't like EH or Tung Sol so it's doubtful you'd like that or Svetlana (there's NOS Svetlana/Winged C 12AX7 as well which is different) since they're all from the same company: New Sensor.

Go buy NOS tubes from as many different companies as possible so you can learn what you like.

Anything specific you are trying to accomplish in tube rolling?

The newer TungSol reissues actually work and sound quite good in a Marshall V1 spot and they are low in microphonics. I've A/B them against my Sylvania long plate 12ax7's and they sound quite similar but handle higher gain alot better. Again the new production Tung Sol's are not to be run in the V2 cathode follower position of a Marshall they will fail there.

For new production in the OP's Friedman V1 I recommend a Chinese 6N4J square getter or newer Chinese 9th generation or a new Tung Sol/EH7025. For the V2 Cathode follower Chinese 9th generation(holds up well under the high voltage of the CF), and what ever you like in V3 Phase inverter position.

I've heard Morris amps uses the new EH7025 and those amps sound pretty killer.

I know Dave Friedman went to EH a few years ago when the JJ reliability went bad but I think he went back to using JJ 12ax7's again so you could always see how the JJ's sound. I've also tried the new JJE83CC which is a very short plate 12ax7 probably and it sounded pretty good in V1 but I liked the Chinese and Tung Sol's over it but you might like it. The JJE83CC looks like a very well made 12ax7 and might work great in a V1 or V2 position.

Haven't tried a new Svetlana 12ax7 but they are just another variant in the EH line from what I can tell.

 

[CDawg]

The newer TungSol reissues actually work and sound quite good in a Marshall V1 spot and they are low in microphonics. I've A/B them against my Sylvania long plate 12ax7's and they sound quite similar but handle higher gain alot better. Again the new production Tung Sol's are not to be run in the V2 cathode follower position of a Marshall they will fail there.

For new production in the OP's Friedman V1 I recommend a Chinese 6N4J square getter or newer Chinese 9th generation or a new Tung Sol/EH7025. For the V2 Cathode follower Chinese 9th generation(holds up well under the high voltage of the CF), and what ever you like in V3 Phase inverter position.

I've heard Morris amps uses the new EH7025 and those amps sound pretty killer.

I know Dave Friedman went to EH a few years ago when the JJ reliability went bad but I think he went back to using JJ 12ax7's again so you could always see how the JJ's sound. I've also tried the new JJE83CC which is a very short plate 12ax7 probably and it sounded pretty good in V1 but I liked the Chinese and Tung Sol's over it but you might like it. The JJE83CC looks like a very well made 12ax7 and might work great in a V1 or V2 position.

Haven't tried a new Svetlana 12ax7 but they are just another variant in the EH line from what I can tell.

I think every tube can have a use but some tubes are better at certain things than others. Certain tubes also work well with each other because nothing in a tube amplifier works in isolation.

I don't find a New Sensor/Tung Sol sounds like a Sylvania. New Sensor/Tung Sol is neutral in a lot of ways but it has poor articulation, dynamics and harmonics and emphasizes the attack of sound. Sylvania mildly adds to the lower treble region and has a bit better articulation, dynamics and harmonics but emphasizes the sustain of sound. The attack and sustain textures play into each other and you probably enjoy the overall sound as more complete or whole than as if you just did a mix of Chinese, JJ and New Sensor where they all focus on the attack and not the sustain.

Agreed about the cathode follower and I do think a Chinese 6N4J is a great sounding tube and has incredible value and I use them as well but there are nicer sounding tubes. I don't tube roll for character or charm. I treat it like a competition to maximize articulation, dynamics and harmonics with extreme neutrality.

 

[BABMusic]

That's exactly one of the issues that I've been trying to figure out -- is one company in Russia making all the tubes these days and then just labelling them EH or Mullard? I know at least JJ is not made there, and obviously any Chinese tube.

 

[CDawg]

That's exactly one of the issues that I've been trying to figure out -- is one company in Russia making all the tubes these days and then just labelling them EH or Mullard? I know at least JJ is not made there, and obviously any Chinese tube.

Yes. New Sensor is making all the Russian tubes these days such as Electro Harmonix, Gold Lion, Mullard, Sovtek, Svetlana, Tung Sol etc.

 

[harddriver]

FWIW I think Dave Friedman pretty much designed his amps around JJ 12ax7's and JJ power tubes.

 

[harddriver]

I think every tube can have a use but some tubes are better at certain things than others. Certain tubes also work well with each other because nothing in a tube amplifier works in isolation.

I don't find a New Sensor/Tung Sol sounds like a Sylvania. New Sensor/Tung Sol is neutral in a lot of ways but it has poor articulation, dynamics and harmonics and emphasizes the attack of sound. Sylvania mildly adds to the lower treble region and has a bit better articulation, dynamics and harmonics but emphasizes the sustain of sound. The attack and sustain textures play into each other and you probably enjoy the overall sound as more complete or whole than as if you just did a mix of Chinese, JJ and New Sensor where they all focus on the attack and not the sustain.

Agreed about the cathode follower and I do think a Chinese 6N4J is a great sounding tube and has incredible value and I use them as well but there are nicer sounding tubes. I don't tube roll for character or charm. I treat it like a competition to maximize articulation, dynamics and harmonics with extreme neutrality.

The reissue Tung Sols that I compared to my sylvanias were from around 2009 that sound sort of close to my Sylvanias. I did pickup some new 2022/4 ones and I though they sounded different and not as good as my 2009 Tung Sols. They didn't have that exact nice bright/crunchy detail of the Sylvanias but they handled the higher gain of the RT mod cascaded 3 gain stage circuit much better and sounded sort of close whereas my NOS long plate Sylvanias would get that plate ring and a bit of oscillation to them compared to being used in a stock 2 gains stage Marshall SL/plexi circuit.

I've since added a high frequency snubber cap across V1A to my amp which helped dampen out some ring and oscillation noise.

 

[CDawg]

The reissue Tung Sols that I compared to my sylvanias were from around 2009 that sound sort of close to my Sylvanias. I did pickup some new 2022/4 ones and I though they sounded different and not as good as my 2009 Tung Sols. They didn't have that exact nice bright/crunchy detail of the Sylvanias but they handled the higher gain of the RT mod cascaded 3 gain stage circuit much better and sounded sort of close whereas my NOS long plate Sylvanias would get that plate ring and a bit of oscillation to them compared to being used in a stock 2 gains stage Marshall SL/plexi circuit.

I've since added a high frequency snubber cap across V1A to my amp which helped dampen out some ring and oscillation noise.

With few exceptions the earlier the production run the better a tube will sound and it's like that for almost every company since the existence of tubes. It's usually very noticeable pre/post WW2 or tubes from the 50s/60s in most brands but especially anything connected to Philips such as Mullard, Philips, Siemens, Valvo, etc. Things like EQ or frequency ranges of tube companies do not change much if at all but the articulation, dynamics and harmonics usually degrade over time for most brands.

Sylvania have never been known as a quiet preamplifier tube but they have excellent sustain unlike most tubes and a lot of people enjoy them as PI or power tubes for that reason IMO. You won't see many people use them in V1 because they don't strongly emphasize the attack like most tubes. Long plates and high gain is a numbers game. I can run a Rectifier easily with all long plates but I wouldn't attempt a 5150 red channel.

 

[Nigel]

Sylvania long black plates have over 2,000gm and rock out, yet they still aren’t Mullard tier. I like ‘em but nothing beats the GOAT.

 

[CDawg]

Sylvania long black plates have over 2,000gm and rock out, yet they still aren’t Mullard tier. I like ‘‘em but nothing beats the GOAT.

What are you testing the Sylvania LBP with? Every one I got was 1650-1850 gm on a Maxipreamp II. Sylvania short black/grey plates around 1800-2000gm, long grey plates around 2000-2250gm and Philips/Sylvania JAN 1800-1900.

Ever try a Blackburn Mullard with a Ken-Rad? I love the Blackburn Mullard midrange and I know lots of people who build around it but I'm hyper focused on other things usually.

What are your thoughts on Foton vs Mullard? I used a Foton 6P3S-E very briefly as a phase inverter in my Fender since it came with it but I didn't want to use it long because it was specced for 6L6GC and I switched to 7581A.

 

[Nigel]

What are you testing the Sylvania LBP with? Every one I got was 1650-1850 gm on a Maxipreamp II. Sylvania short black/grey plates around 1800-2000gm, long grey plates around 2000-2250gm and Philips/Sylvania JAN 1800-1900.

Ever try a Blackburn Mullard with a Ken-Rad? I love the Blackburn Mullard midrange and I know lots of people who build around it but I'm hyper focused on other things usually.

What are your thoughts on Foton vs Mullard? I used a Foton 6P3S-E very briefly as a phase inverter in my Fender since it came with it but I didn't want to use it long because it was specced for 6L6GC and I switched to 7581A.

Heathkit TT1-A

Never had a Ken-Rad.

Foton 6P3S-E's are the finest example of the Sovtek "5881," they are not preamp tubes. They are an EL34-ish sounding tube. That said I generally prefer JJ 6L6GC's to them and JJ KT77's above all.

 

[CDawg]

Heathkit TT1-A

Never had a Ken-Rad.

Foton 6P3S-E's are the finest example of the Sovtek "5881," they are not preamp tubes. They are an EL34-ish sounding tube. That said I generally prefer JJ 6L6GC's to them and JJ KT77's above all.

That makes sense for gm ratings.

Ken-Rad pairs well with a Blackburn Mullard IMO.

A 6P3S-E, 5881, 6L6GC, etc. is a power tube for most guitar amplifier tubes. It's a preamplifier tube for my Fender 400 PS.

http://www.timeelect.com/400-faq.htm#22. What are the Fender specs for the

Phase Inverter: 12AU7, 6L6GC, Transformer