Constructing Diminished Chords?

[glpg80]

i cant figure it out?

ive got a classical run that starts in the key of A and is a natural minor progression (A, B diminished, G, A, F, G Diminished?, E and then back to A and i cant figure out for the diminished structure layout for that progression in G. the run is a beat pattern - 321321 echo piece using only 3 notes (root 5th and 3rd i think?)

so how do i go about constructing a G or F diminished chord from A natural minor?

 

[Jimmie]

i cant figure it out?

ive got a classical run that starts in the key of A and is a natural minor progression (A, B diminished, G, A, F, G Diminished?, E and then back to A and i cant figure out for the diminished structure layout for that progression in G. the run is a beat pattern - 321321 echo piece using only 3 notes (root 5th and 3rd i think?)

so how do i go about constructing a G or F diminished chord from A natural minor?

Do you have a clip of it?

 

[glpg80]

i cant figure it out?

ive got a classical run that starts in the key of A and is a natural minor progression (A, B diminished, G, A, F, G Diminished?, E and then back to A and i cant figure out for the diminished structure layout for that progression in G. the run is a beat pattern - 321321 echo piece using only 3 notes (root 5th and 3rd i think?)

so how do i go about constructing a G or F diminished chord from A natural minor?

Do you have a clip of it?

nah i cant, my laptop's motherboard has gone south and i used to use the webcam from it for recording. now i have nothing

if i can have someone walk me through the basics of diminished minor modes or keys and help me figure out how to construct diminished chords in major and minor form i can transcribe it into arpeggios because ive figured out the rest of it for the most part i think - the progression then goes Am, A#dim7th, Gmaj, Cmaj (since A natural minor would be redundant), F(maj?), G#dim7th, Em, then back to A - either A or Am i havent decided which tonality i like with it yet.

im not sure if thats correct terminology on the diminished runs but i still need help here trying to transpose what im thinking into what i want to play. if i try to play the same diminished sharp structure im using in A but in G it does not sound right, and i dont know how to construct a G#dim chord with a relative key of Am.

 

[degenaro]

I'm not sure I get what you're asking...but this might help ya...
diminished is just that, ther eis no difference in terms of major or minor...
all it is...is stacked minor thirds...so Bb/A# dim7 is Bb-Db-E-G
as for where diminished lives...
in A...g#-b-d-f...the vii chord in melodic minor.

 

[Jimmie]

im not sure if thats correct terminology on the diminished runs but i still need help here trying to transpose what im thinking into what i want to play. if i try to play the same diminished sharp structure im using in A but in G it does not sound right, and i dont know how to construct a G#dim chord with a relative key of Am.

I've been picking up some theory from Theodore, he's a friend and a cool guy. Diminished stuff is hard to get your ears around somedays. Maybe this will help.

 

[stefvorcide]

Matt, the simple trick I do is:

you're in the key of A Minor... you take the 7# from that as if you were in harmonic minor (which is G#) and you use 3rds from that. so G#, B, D and F are your notes for every diminished chord/arp.

it works in any key, sounds very YJM too

 

[degenaro]

Matt, the simple trick I do is:

you're in the key of A Minor... you take the 7# from that as if you were in harmonic minor (which is G#) and you use 3rds from that. so G#, B, D and F are your notes for every diminished chord/arp.

it works in any key, sounds very YJM too

And you'd taht arpeggio over E...because it spells E7b9

 

[glpg80]

figured it out guys, thanks stef that really helped dude and Ed mentioning it over E makes even more sense, and jimmie for posting that clip because that is another way of doing it

im going to try constructing actual chordes with it now so i can understand more about it. but as for the progression what clicked was what stef said, thanks man

appreciate all of the help guys

 

[Jimmie]

figured it out guys, thanks stef that really helped dude and Ed mentioning it over E makes even more sense, and jimmie for posting that clip because that is another way of doing it

im going to try constructing actual chordes with it now so i can understand more about it. but as for the progression what clicked was what stef said, thanks man

appreciate all of the help guys

NP, am one of those guys who need to "see" it before the lightbulb turns on.

 

[degenaro]

figured it out guys, thanks stef that really helped dude and Ed mentioning it over E makes even more sense, and jimmie for posting that clip because that is another way of doing it

im going to try constructing actual chordes with it now so i can understand more about it. but as for the progression what clicked was what stef said, thanks man

appreciate all of the help guys

Yeah, here's how that works....
G# dim 7 chord repeats every 3 frets, and the resulting chord is just the inversion...i.e. G#djm7=Bdim7=Ddim7=Fdim7
And as I said you can think of it as a E7b9 without the root.
Meaning the next step past the arpeggio is using dim scale...
so... F diminished f,g,g#,a#,b,c#, d,e
Or viewed as E ha;f/whole e, f,g,g#,a#,b,c#, d

 

[stefvorcide]

no problems, that's what R-T is all about

What I pm'ed Matt:

G diminished is G, A#, C#, E. but then A# and C# aren't in the key of Am, so it's gonna sound weird (i don't have my axe to play your progression now)

BUT in the key of A minor, over the G7 chord (G,B,A,F) is the mixolydian position, so basicly every notes works (you just have to make 'em work) lots of jazzman and country players uses that.

If you switch to A harmonic minor for that chord, the "real" chord from the harmony would be G# dim. (G becomes G#)

I dont think I understand your question correctly tho.

hopefuly Ed or somebody else knows better than me

 

[degenaro]

no problems, that's what R-T is all about

What I pm'ed Matt:

G diminished is G, A#, C#, E. but then A# and C# aren't in the key of Am, so it's gonna sound weird (i don't have my axe to play your progression now)

BUT in the key of A minor, over the G7 chord (G,B,A,F) is the mixolydian position, so basicly every notes works (you just have to make 'em work) lots of jazzman and country players uses that.

If you switch to A harmonic minor for that chord, the "real" chord from the harmony would be G# dim. (G becomes G#)

I dont think I understand your question correctly tho.

hopefuly Ed or somebody else knows better than me

Right, and if you're relating it to a dominant 7 chord it spells 7b9 with no root

i.e. G#dim... G#, B, D, F
against a G root becomes G#/Ab=b9, B=3, D=5, F=7

 

[degenaro]

And along that line...


https://www.facebook.com/?sk=video#!/vid ... 6340772571

same with less gain and sauce...
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=486343452571

 

[glpg80]

And along that line...

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v/486340772571

same with less gain and sauce...
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=486343452571

dude, thats exactly what i have been practicing lately - but i havent been tapping it across the whole neck

can you explain why when you go from G B A strings you make the fret location jumps that you do? is it based only off of what root note you begin with or how does that work?

i need to study more about intervals - i think i would understand this thread a little more if i did

 

[degenaro]

And along that line...

https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v/486340772571

same with less gain and sauce...
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=486343452571

dude, thats exactly what i have been practicing lately - but i havent been tapping it across the whole neck

can you explain why when you go from G B A strings you make the fret location jumps that you do? is it based only off of what root note you begin with or how does that work?

i need to study more about intervals - i think i would understand this thread a little more if i did

Because when you do the "stair stepped" thing on the g,b,e strings you get this crazy sequence which goes a,a#,c,c#,c,#,d#,e,d#,e, without any effort.
As for the root, since it's diminished it works over 4 roots...
And repeats every 3 frets. The only motions I have is a minor 3rd (3 frets up) and then a tritone up, which is 3 frets twice. When it goes to the top strings instead of going up on a string a minor 3rd and when going to the next string up a tritone I go to the next string and only go up a minor 3rd.

Makes sense?

 

[glpg80]

so in this example, because its diminished, a tritone would be the chord equivalent to an octave?

how would you describe the difference between tritones, ditones, etc and octaves?

 

[degenaro]

so in this example, because its diminished, a tritone would be the chord equivalent to an octave?

how would you describe the difference between tritones, ditones, etc and octaves?

A tritone is half an octave...or 6 half steps, or a flat 5...i.e. the intro to Purple Haze.
A Ditone is the greek major third...which is like 5 cent sharp of our major third, or 20 some cent sharp of a just intonated major third. Forget about ditones for now.


Here's the deal with diminished...
if you stack minor thirds on top of each other everything repeats every 3 frets...
So the first repear is at the minor third, second is at the tritone, 2 minor thirds, then 3 minor thirds, and then at the octave it starts over.

 

[Jimmie]

And along that line...


https://www.facebook.com/?sk=video#!/vid ... 6340772571

same with less gain and sauce...
https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=486343452571

nice work Ed, thanks for sharing. This is one of the reasons I keep coming back.

 

[glpg80]

so in this example, because its diminished, a tritone would be the chord equivalent to an octave?

how would you describe the difference between tritones, ditones, etc and octaves?

A tritone is half an octave...or 6 half steps, or a flat 5...i.e. the intro to Purple Haze.
A Ditone is the greek major third...which is like 5 cent sharp of our major third, or 20 some cent sharp of a just intonated major third. Forget about ditones for now.


Here's the deal with diminished...
if you stack minor thirds on top of each other everything repeats every 3 frets...
So the first repear is at the minor third, second is at the tritone, 2 minor thirds, then 3 minor thirds, and then at the octave it starts over.

very helpful.

i misunderstood ditones then - ill definately forget about them - that seems to be a whole different tuning system all together.

minor third, tritone, minor third, minor third, minor third, minor third, minor third, (octave) minor third, tritone?

so technically you could skip minor thirds to any degree, tritones, octaves of diminished, etc but you chose tritones in the example for more of a flowing character correct?

 

[degenaro]

so in this example, because its diminished, a tritone would be the chord equivalent to an octave?

how would you describe the difference between tritones, ditones, etc and octaves?

A tritone is half an octave...or 6 half steps, or a flat 5...i.e. the intro to Purple Haze.
A Ditone is the greek major third...which is like 5 cent sharp of our major third, or 20 some cent sharp of a just intonated major third. Forget about ditones for now.


Here's the deal with diminished...
if you stack minor thirds on top of each other everything repeats every 3 frets...
So the first repear is at the minor third, second is at the tritone, 2 minor thirds, then 3 minor thirds, and then at the octave it starts over.

very helpful.

i misunderstood ditones then - ill definately forget about them - that seems to be a whole different tuning system all together.

minor third, tritone, minor third, minor third, minor third, minor third, minor third, (octave) minor third, tritone?

so technically you could skip minor thirds to any degree, tritones, octaves of diminished, etc but you chose tritones in the example for more of a flowing character correct?

Technically you can skip into any direction by a minor third or multiple of it...i.e. minor third (3 frets), tritone, (2 minor thirds/6 frets), tritone+ minor third (3 minor thirds/9frets), octave, 4 minor thrids (12 frets).
I was playing around with the same pattern going up tritone-minor third-tritone tonight...
so, pattern starting on the 10th fret d string, then 11th g string then 10th b string then 11th e string.
I think to me it's just the diminished sound living in the tritone and minor third.