Dagnall C2668 vs C1998 OT

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Bad Brain

Bad Brain

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It appears that these output transformers are very similar.

Can anyone speak to the construction differences, and whether they impact tone, or whether the design changes were more for engineering/manufacturing purposes?

Application is a 2203 clone. I currently have a c1998 reproduction.
 
They are different, the C1998 is more of a vintage darker tone than the C2668 which is brighter. Idk the specs but you can find them easily. The impedance will differ and my guess is the core material too. The C1998 used M6 laminations for specific flux pattern related to induction in the core. In order for them to differ they definitely switch up the design.
 
The only people that will definitively know for sure, other than the companies who built them, are Chris Merren and Brian (Marstran). Heyboer knows but I don't think they'd share the info. Maybe Mercurcy Magnetics might have notes as well. But if my memory serves me correctly, the primary impedance on each one might be slightly different. Either way, the C1998 sounds a little more vintage in my experience. And the C2668 more modern... stronger, more weight grunt in the low-mids and mid-mids. If I were building a Super Lead clone, I'd go with the C1998. If I were building a JCM800 clone, I'd go with the C2668.
 
Funny. I earlier found this Instagram post by a guy who's opened up both



Reproduced here in case it ever gets missing

Some Marshall transformer trivia…

Many will be aware that Dagnall replaced Drake as the supplier of iron for the 100W amps in 1967. The C1998 output transformer was introduced in August, with a 1.5” stack and grain-oriented steel. Possibly because this change roughly coincided with the move to ‘lead’ specs (split cathode on V1, 33k/500pF tonestack etc.), this OT is often described as the perfect ‘rock’ OT - in contrast to the narrower-bandwidth of the Drake 1202-119s and -132s which preceded it.

The C1998 was phased out in 1971, replaced first by the C2373, then by the C2668. As with most Marshall parts changes, there was a period of transition for the changes to universally take effect, and there were ‘72 amps which came with C1998s. The easiest way to distinguish an original C1998s without removing bell covers is by the distinctive cloth-covered (‘self lead’) secondaries (although there was a period around its introduction when flying leads were used).

The C2668 has a completely different geometry to the C1998, and always used a nylon bobbin and alternative insulation. It was clearly a cheaper transformer, for better or worse, and the sound is correspondingly different.

The C2373 is a different matter. There are both paper- and nylon-bobbin variants, but a well-known transformer winder has told me that the paper C2373s have the same winding pattern and insulation as the C1998s, with the only exception being an extra layer of paper between the primary and secondary to prevent arcing. As such, they are essentially a more robust C1998.

I’ve had both on my bench and the cross-sections seem to corroborate this. First is a C1998, second a C2373.

FWIW, I've actually always preferred the more aggressive, higher gain metal panel Super Leads of the 70s, but idk how much of that can be attributed to the trannies when there's also notable component and circuit changes lol
 
The only people that will definitively know for sure, other than the companies who built them, are Chris Merren and Brian (Marstran). Heyboer knows but I don't think they'd share the info. Maybe Mercurcy Magnetics might have notes as well. But if my memory serves me correctly, the primary impedance on each one might be slightly different. Either way, the C1998 sounds a little more vintage in my experience. And the C2668 more modern... stronger, more weight grunt in the low-mids and mid-mids. If I were building a Super Lead clone, I'd go with the C1998. If I were building a JCM800 clone, I'd go with the C2668.

Do you happen to know anyone other than Hammond who makes C2668 clones btw? Everyone who offers 100W Marshall OTs seem to base theirs around t he C1998
 
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