DEMO: Motor City Hot Head vs BKP VHII into Peters GNL amp...

[firejack]

Sounds fantastic.

I have a GNL as well. Doesn't sound quite the same as yours (with the same settings). Mine is new. About 5 months old maybe. So it might have some slight changes compared to yours. But it's got the same growl (maybe more so). Awesome amp. I also have a Hydra. Peters makes some really great stuff. I don't know why more people don't use them. I was using Diezel mostly (tried some other amps like Fortin, modded Marshalls, etc.). But the Peters sounds is it.

Does your GNL have the Wide/Normal and Modern/Vintage switch? And what tubes (pre and power) are you running?

James, the first clip of the GNL on your site is baller. That's THE sound for me right there. Lots of growl and chunk. Any details on amp settings/speakers/recording setup, etc? It kind of has a slight hollow bounciness to palm mutes and on the attack that I really like. My GNL definitely delivers. But that clip is tonal nirvana.

I am using a Bogner 2x12 with V30s. Maybe the cab design is part of it. The Bogner cabs have insulation/batting inside. That might kill some of the liveliness.

In my experience with Peters amps, they are very responsive to all kinds of input variables.
If you're interested in getting these types of sounds, I'll give you as much detail as I can about the gear I used for that particular clip you mentioned:

http://www.tonefinder.com/?value=PETERS+GNL&section=amp

First up, my amp is a 50W version with Electro Harmonix EL34's in the power amp, biased colder than normal to compensate for their saturation (I've found EH EL34's have a very hot, compressed, gainy character).
The preamp has a mix of various 12AX7s (V1-Tung Sol, V2-Penta Labs, V3-Electro Harmonix, V4-Penta Labs).

For that 1st clip on James' website, I used two guitars tuned to Eb/Drop Db.
Left is my Edwards Les Paul with a BKP Black Dog bridge, 500k pots and D'Addario EXL115 (011-049) strings.
Right is my G&L ASAT Black Ice with a MCP HotHead bridge, 500k pots and also D'Addario EXL115 (011-049) strings.

I tend to choose guitars that unplugged have a natural tightness to the lows, but with a balanced and resonant sound overall.
I find it very difficult to tame a boomy sounding guitar. And likewise I struggle to balance an overly bright, honky and/or thin sounding guitar.
I hate to admit how many guitars and pickups I've been through in the last year trying to find the right candidates.
But I'm finally done searching now, and have a stable of 6 cool sounding guitars in various tunings.

For bridge pickups, I tend to go for balanced but more mid-focused models with good clarity and attack.
Fave models to date are the MCP HotHead, MCP Detroiter, BKP Painkiller and BKP Black Dog.
My preferred tone for recording can sound harsh in the room, but in a mix it sounds just right.

For both clips, I went direct with a V30 Impulse file that James Peters made a while ago.

Hope this helps mate.

 

[FourT6and2]

Thanks James and Gavin

I have a bunch of various pickups. Right now, I'm running BKP Holy Divers in one LP and and BKP Nailbombs in the other. I do also have Black Dogs. But recently swapped those out for the Holy Divers. I also have a Jackson Dinky with EMG 85/81 tuned down a full step in Drop C.

My Hydra has EH EL34s so I know how those tend to sound. My GNL has all the stock tubes at the moment. But I do have some Tung Sol and some others to try for preamps. I'm running Tung Sol in the Hydra and it sounds great.

I assume you're using the Tung Sol reissue, not originals?

In any event, my LPs are fairly fat sounding guitars. But have a prominent mid range. But I wouldn't call them "tight," they're actually pretty loose in the lows unfortunately. I've played some other guitars that have that hollow chunky sound to them, but they are usually much lighter. Like a Music Man or Parker.

 

[firejack]

Thanks James and Gavin

I have a bunch of various pickups. Right now, I'm running BKP Holy Divers in one LP and and BKP Nailbombs in the other. I do also have Black Dogs. But recently swapped those out for the Holy Divers. I also have a Jackson Dinky with EMG 85/81 tuned down a full step in Drop C.

What was the issue with the Black Dogs? What were you tuned to?
I much prefer the Black Dog for it's poky midrange and percussive attack, almost like a Painkiller Lite.
The Holy Diver has never quite hit the spot for me. I've used them in superstrat type guitars only, and whilst they sound good (especially impressive when split for clean tones), I find them too warm overall and too soft on the attack for my ideal high-gain rhythm tones.
For warmer darker guitars, I'd ideally go with a Painkiller bridge. I'm very tempted to swap out the Aftermath bridge in my G&L Stealth Legacy (tuned to C#) for a Painkiller bridge, but first I'll see how the Aftermath bridge records before making that decision.

My Hydra has EH EL34s so I know how those tend to sound. My GNL has all the stock tubes at the moment. But I do have some Tung Sol and some others to try for preamps. I'm running Tung Sol in the Hydra and it sounds great.

I assume you're using the Tung Sol reissue, not originals?

Yep the Tung Sol reissues.
I like a 12AX7 that's bright and percussive in V1, and the Tung Sol is exactly that.
In the V2, V3 and V4 slots I prefer warmer or more balanced sounding 12AX7's. The Penta Labs are especially good at that.

In any event, my LPs are fairly fat sounding guitars. But have a prominent mid range. But I wouldn't call them "tight," they're actually pretty loose in the lows unfortunately. I've played some other guitars that have that hollow chunky sound to them, but they are usually much lighter. Like a Music Man or Parker.

Yeah if you aren't happy with those LP's, I'd try a Painkiller bridge. That would be your best bet at reining in the lows and shaving some excessive fatness. The Painkiller is a very focused pickup with blistering mids. It's one of my fave bridge pickups for brightening and tightening up a warm or dark guitar. Or you could maybe try some EMG's if you dig them. Personally I don't like EMG's with any Peters amp I've owned. They tended to flatten out the mids and detract from my ideal overall tone.

Being forced to purchase guitars blind off the internet due to steep local prices, I have found G&L guitars to be the most consistent. Their USA models I have purchased have all been knockouts, and I wouldn't hesitate to purchase one without testing it first. Really solid guitars with great tone.
I wish I'd tried G&L guitars sooner. Would've saved me a lot of time and money. Killer guitars.

Cheers mate. Really cool talking gear with you.

 

[FourT6and2]

What was the issue with the Black Dogs? What were you tuned to?

No issues with the Black Dogs. I liked them a lot. I just felt like swapping them out for a while. Got bored I guess They are unique sounding pickups for sure. Maybe one of my favorites. Guitar was tuned to standard/drop-d.

I have not tried Painkillers. I might look into them at some point.

I like a 12AX7 that's bright and percussive in V1, and the Tung Sol is exactly that.

Yep, mirrors my experience with them as well. Although they are VERY noisy tubes. I have a bunch of them and they've all been quite noisy. I don't think I have any Pentas on hand. Might look into trying a few as well, thanks

Yeah if you aren't happy with those LP's, I'd try a Painkiller bridge. That would be your best bet at reining in the lows and shaving some excessive fatness. The Painkiller is a very focused pickup with blistering mids. It's one of my fave bridge pickups for brightening and tightening up a warm or dark guitar. Or you could maybe try some EMG's if you dig them. Personally I don't like EMG's with any Peters amp I've owned. They tended to flatten out the mids and detract from my ideal overall tone.

I might try a Painkiller down the line. I'm pretty happy with my LPs. They are my favorite guitar so far and they two Silverbursts I have are staying put forever and ever But LPs like these have loose lows. That's just the nature of the beast. My GNL has more mid range growl than any other amp I've tried. So with an EMG 85 in the bridge (not an 81), it's pretty damn aggressive. But very fat compared to the 81, which again doesn't help my lack of tight lows problem. Maybe it's just the way I play? Who knows.

Cheers mate. Really cool talking gear with you.

You too, man. Your vids/clips are what piqued my interest in Peters amps to begin with. You had some clips comparing the Holy Divers and Nailbombs in your Parker guitars a while back and they sounded awesome.

 

[JamesPeters]

If the guitar sounds loose/too bassy, the Painkiller can make that aspect worse. That's what I've noticed anyway. I've installed a few of them, and one got passed from guitar to guitar to guitar (among my roommate's guitars, and one of his friend's) until it landed it a "normal" guitar and then it sounded good. They had the same thought: if the guitar was too bassy/loose, this pickup will help. It just made it very punchy in the frequencies that were already prominent in the guitar. It's possible the Painkiller can help a guitar like this, but I wouldn't count on it.

If the guitar sounds loose or had lows which were too powerful, I've only had success a few times. Sometimes lowering the pickup (further from the strings) is all it needs, and that's great when it's just that. Or in the case of my Bill Lawrence Swampkaster T (tele style guitar), changing the bridge to one with less mass (that doesn't wrap around the bridge pickup) worked. Change pickups enough times and you might come across one that coincidentally helps (I've done that too). It's hard to just cut straight to the chase and "fix it" with one change though, since it's a bit of a crapshoot. Everyone will say "I use pickup X and it's great at sounding tight!" but in a guitar that's loose sounding, good luck.

Speaking of which, the Nailbomb doesn't sound like a tight pickup to me in most guitars. It's punchy and if anything a bit round on the lows. I like it, but I wouldn't buy it for something with a sharp attack. (Again that's not saying someone could get a sharp attack using that pickup, but it depends on the guitar it's in and if I've heard it in a dozen guitars and it still doesn't scream "this is a tighter pickup", by then I just give up.)

Mike: before you try new tubes, try biasing a bit colder. I mean your guitar could be where to start, but after that (or even in the meantime) if you want to change settings of the amp, try that. Maybe 50mV per pair, or a bit less (40mV for instance). As long as it doesn't start sounding weak or really buzzy.

Yeah, the 85 will sound too fat in a guitar with fat lows. I just saw your post. It's not a pickup I'd use for this. If you only notice it sounding too fat with the 85 compared to other pickups you've used, then maybe the Painkiller would work nicely for it.

 

[FourT6and2]

If the guitar sounds loose/too bassy, the Painkiller can make that aspect worse. That's what I've noticed anyway. I've installed a few of them, and one got passed from guitar to guitar to guitar (among my roommate's guitars, and one of his friend's) until it landed it a "normal" guitar and then it sounded good. They had the same thought: if the guitar was too bassy/loose, this pickup will help. It just made it very punchy in the frequencies that were already prominent in the guitar. It's possible the Painkiller can help a guitar like this, but I wouldn't count on it.

If the guitar sounds loose or had lows which were too powerful, I've only had success a few times. Sometimes lowering the pickup (further from the strings) is all it needs, and that's great when it's just that. Or in the case of my Bill Lawrence Swampkaster T (tele style guitar), changing the bridge to one with less mass (that doesn't wrap around the bridge pickup) worked. Change pickups enough times and you might come across one that coincidentally helps (I've done that too). It's hard to just cut straight to the chase and "fix it" with one change though, since it's a bit of a crapshoot. Everyone will say "I use pickup X and it's great at sounding tight!" but in a guitar that's loose sounding, good luck.

Speaking of which, the Nailbomb doesn't sound like a tight pickup to me in most guitars. It's punchy and if anything a bit round on the lows. I like it, but I wouldn't buy it for something with a sharp attack. (Again that's not saying someone could get a sharp attack using that pickup, but it depends on the guitar it's in and if I've heard it in a dozen guitars and it still doesn't scream "this is a tighter pickup", by then I just give up.)

Mike: before you try new tubes, try biasing a bit colder. I mean your guitar could be where to start, but after that (or even in the meantime) if you want to change settings of the amp, try that. Maybe 50mV per pair, or a bit less (40mV for instance). As long as it doesn't start sounding weak or really buzzy.

Yeah, the 85 will sound too fat in a guitar with fat lows. I just saw your post. It's not a pickup I'd use for this. If you only notice it sounding too fat with the 85 compared to other pickups you've used, then maybe the Painkiller would work nicely for it.

I might play around with the bias first. I think it's still at wherever you biased it when you shipped it to me. But from tube rolling in all my other amps, I've typically landed on a Tung Sol in V1 of most of them. But it is hard to find one that isn't overly noisy. I probably won't swap pickups any time soon as I've pretty much settled on the three sets I have at the moment (Nailbombs, Divers, Black Dogs). "Round" is a good way of describing the lows on the Nailbomb though. In fact I that that's a good descriptor for how my guitars sound in general. Round in the lows. Not necessarily loose. But again, I think that's just the nature of my LPs or my playing style. I don't think pickups, tubes, or anything else will really change that. No big deal for me really. I'm super happy with my Hydra and GNL either way!

 

[ke2]

Gavin sent me 3 versions of this (so I could record bass with one and use it on my site). One clip has pickup A, the second has pickup B, and the third one has both (left/right). It's really easy to tell the differences for me with these, since I'm used to picking a part of the song which I want to listen for a difference in and then A/Bing them at that exact part. The VHII pickup sounds more open and less thick with "saturation", but has a more vocal something-or-other to it. I like both. Each has something I really like, which is different from the other.

I have nothing to add, except for nice seeing you both again

 

[JamesPeters]

I might play around with the bias first. I think it's still at wherever you biased it when you shipped it to me. But from tube rolling in all my other amps, I've typically landed on a Tung Sol in V1 of most of them. But it is hard to find one that isn't overly noisy. I probably won't swap pickups any time soon as I've pretty much settled on the three sets I have at the moment (Nailbombs, Divers, Black Dogs). "Round" is a good way of describing the lows on the Nailbomb though. In fact I that that's a good descriptor for how my guitars sound in general. Round in the lows. Not necessarily loose. But again, I think that's just the nature of my LPs or my playing style. I don't think pickups, tubes, or anything else will really change that. No big deal for me really. I'm super happy with my Hydra and GNL either way!

I'm very glad to hear that!

I have nothing to add, except for nice seeing you both again

Hi Knut!

 

[mxr2000]

Awesome tone! It sounded like the Motor City pickups had a clearer top end..to me anyway. The BKs sounded a little beefier too, but once you add the bass to the track, Id opt for the clearer top end.

sounds good . The motor city sounds like it has more mid .

Just my $.02 . I would like to hear some upper octave stuff to compare the top end of the pups .

The MCP sounded a little hotter but just ever so slightly not a thick sounding. The VHII seemed to have the upper hand in note separation and overall fatness. Something else I noticed is that the MCP made the amp sound more like a hot rodded Marshall. Hard to explain but it just has this extra push to it that the VHII doesn't have. But I would pick the VHII based on this comparison. Good stuff man! Thanks for taking the time to go through it

Wow, great ears guys.
I agree with all these observations.

To my ears...

Bare Knuckle VHII has an almost single-coil like, stringy attack to it. Makes the VHII sound slightly more percussive than the HotHead.
It has a lot of grind in the lows and highs, and this makes it sound as thick overall as the HotHead.
But it is clear and laid-back in the mids.
Doesn't push the amp as much as the HotHead. As a result, for me the VHII is a more demanding pickup to play since it's so clean and transparent.
But on the plus side, this contributes to its great articulation and note separation.
Also, I found the VHII a picky pickup in different guitars.

Motor City HotHead has clear, tight lows. But still manages to sound thick.
And it has a slight attenuation in the highs without sounding too chopped. Very nice thick but cutting highs.
The grind in the low-mids is wicked. The mids overall have more interesting character for my tastes.
It has a fuller "thwack" sound when palm muting than the VHII.
Feels like a much hotter pickup when you play it, and as a result it's more user-friendly.
But of course, this means the HotHead has a little less clarity and note separation than the VHII.

I have to admit, I didn't like the VHII at first. But it has grown on me especially after finding the right guitar for it.
The HotHead on the other hand was an instant hit.

Both great pickups, but for my tastes the Motor City HotHead is my favorite.

Cheers for all the kind words guys.

when you say that the VHII its a picky pickup on different guitars, which guitar worked for you and which wont ?