Diezel Herbert Mk3 vs Friedman JJ-100

[Veritas0Aequitas]

Can anyone who has played both of these amps comment on their experience? Which you liked better and why? What music do you play?

I am going to play it in a band. I have read the Herbert struggles in a band situation so that does factor into the decision. Right now I am leaning towards the Herbert Mk3 since I do more lead than rhythm but the JJ-100 sounds incredible for leads too.

Thanks!

 

[braintheory]

Can anyone who has played both of these amps comment on their experience? Which you liked better and why? What music do you play?

I am going to play it in a band. I have read the Herbert struggles in a band situation so that does factor into the decision. Right now I am leaning towards the Herbert Mk3 since I do more lead than rhythm but the JJ-100 sounds incredible for leads too.

Thanks!

I personally don’t care for either amp since neither is very organic sounding compared to my preferred amps. Both too polished or smooth sounding for my taste and both have that flat/kinda filtered sound that you tend to get in most newer amps vs vintage amps. The Herbert MK3 will sound more modern, bigger, more robust, deeper bottom, heavier sound overall imo, less growl, tighter, more compressed. JJ will sound more Marshall-y, imo more growl, especially in the mids, more midrange aggression, more warmth. Herbert has a colder, almost clinical sound. Not many amps have as big bottom end as the Herbert’s. The only ones I’ve tried that have more would be my Blueface, no stripe ++ coliseum (not the other coli’s I’ve had) and my Hiwatt at volume. Maybe the MI Megalith Beta could be another, but haven’t tried one yet

For high gain lead tones my all time favorite amps are my Mark iic+, Protoype Purpleface and ‘89 SLO. The latter 2 are unfortunately not really obtainable amps. Maybe a Mark IV or iii could be worth considering if a iic+ isn’t possible. Those are also great lead amps. I remember liking I think the Butterslax best for leads of the Friedman line up (nice greasiness), but imo still pales compared to my real favorite lead amps. For fat, soulful leads (not shred) I love my Triple Recto Rev F/C mod

 

[VESmedic]

I honestly can’t think of two more different high gain amps, contextually speaking. The Herbert to me, is the greatest high gain amp on the planet... for recording... I wouldn’t use it live. I own 9 amps: Mesa rev F, modded Marshall’s, 5150s, driftwood etc. I’ve owned it all. Literally I can only think of a few high gain amps I haven’t owned. I keep what I love. With that said, the Herbert is one of the most special amps I’ve ever played or owned for a number of situations, but live wouldn’t be one of them... however, I’ve never played the mk3 so take that into consideration. Most people always desire the newest incarnation of something ( fractal comes to mind here) but I have absolutely no desire to try the mk 3 Herbert, given the fact the original is so mind blowing to me, and I haven’t heard a buzz loud enough about the mk3 for me to warrant a care in the world about owning it. I’m sure it’s great none the less. The Herbert is probably my desert island recording amp because it just fits so many projects and sounds no matter what I throw at it. It’s hi fi, extreme clarity and subdued compressed midrange are god like in a mix to me. And it’s low end simply can not be beat. It’s a winner. No doubt about it.... but maybe not for your situation...
On the other side, I personally can not stand Friedman Amps for just about anything. Do they sound good? Yes, but like how a really good practice amp sounds good in the room. Does it sound like a practice amp? No, that’s not what I’m saying. What I am saying is, Friedman takes all the frequencies that people think are “harsh” or “too bright” and flattens them out. And what you are left with is a perfectly polished high gain guitar tone that has absolutely no high end or teeth or aggression that wouldn’t work for anything... for ME. They are extremely dark, flat, and honestly just sound “neutered” to me. Like a Marshall that they took everything out of it that makes it a Marshall and cut through, and neutered it. Again, just my opinion. You’re gonna get the warriors in here that are going to flame me. Couldn’t care less. Not a fan in the least. The Herbert is on another planet than the Friedman as far as tone to me... however....

I doubt either of these are going to be what you want. I’d start searching elsewhere if live playing is a huge concern .

 

[braintheory]

I honestly can’t think of two more different high gain amps, contextually speaking. The Herbert to me, is the greatest high gain amp on the planet... for recording... I wouldn’t use it live. I own 9 amps: Mesa rev F, modded Marshall’s, 5150s, driftwood etc. I’ve owned it all. Literally I can only think of a few high gain amps I haven’t owned. I keep what I love. With that said, the Herbert is one of the most special amps I’ve ever played or owned for a number of situations, but live wouldn’t be one of them... however, I’ve never played the mk3 so take that into consideration. Most people always desire the newest incarnation of something ( fractal comes to mind here) but I have absolutely no desire to try the mk 3 Herbert, given the fact the original is so mind blowing to me, and I haven’t heard a buzz loud enough about the mk3 for me to warrant a care in the world about owning it. I’m sure it’s great none the less. The Herbert is my probably my dessert island recording amp because it just fits so many projects and sounds no matter what I throw at it. It’s hi fi, extreme clarity and sub dued midrange are god like in a mix to me. And it’s low end simply can no be beat. It’s a winner. No doubt about it.... but maybe not for your situation...
On the other side, I personally can not stand Friedman Amps for just about anything. Do they sound good? Yes, but like how a really good practice amp sounds good in the room. Does it sound like a practice amp? No, that’s not what I’m saying. What I am saying is, Friedman takes all the frequencies that people think are “harsh” or “too bright” and flattens them out. And what you are left with is a perfectly polished high gain guitar tone that has absolutely no high end or teeth or aggression that wouldn’t work for anything... for ME. They are extremely dark, flat, and honestly just sound “neutered” to me. Like a Marshall that they took everything out of it that makes it a Marshall and cut through, and neutered it. Again, just my opinion. You’re gonna get the warriors in here that are going to flame me. Couldn’t care less. Not a fan in the least. The Herbert is on another planet than the Friedman as far as tone to me... however....

I doubt either of these are going to be what you want. I’d start searching elsewhere if live playing is a huge concern .

That’s a perfect description of Friedman’s. Couldn’t have said it better myself. They were always one of those amps that would sound great to me until AB’ing with something else that I knew I already loved. I think I did like the mki and ii versions of the Herbert a bit more than the iii. Haven’t AB’ed them, but I don’t think there was a massive difference. I think maybe the mkiii was just a bit smoother, more polished and a bit darker, but would have to compare to really know for sure

 

[VESmedic]

That’s a perfect description of Friedman’s. Couldn’t have said it better myself. They were always one of those amps that would sound great to me until AB’ing with something else that I knew I already loved. I think I did like the mki and ii versions of the Herbert a bit more than the iii. Haven’t AB’ed them, but I don’t think there was a massive difference. I think maybe the mkiii was just a bit smoother, more polished and a bit darker, but would have to compare to really know for sure

Exactly... that’s a killer point... they sound amazing by themselves with nothing else in the room, like if you haven’t played guitar in a few days and you pick up a guitar and haven’t played in awhile and that’s what you plug into first: if that makes sense... but compared to something you loved for years and know well, it wouldn’t be close. Again... YMMV..... and I’m sure lots of great tones have been made with Friedman’s... I’m just not aware of any...although many of my friends who play professionally with me in Nashville do use Friedman amps and sound great in that situation no doubt....and before someone says AIC or something like that, that doesn’t count, because there are far too many other factors that don’t exist today when it comes to guitar tone. Guitar chains are much simpler today than they were in the years past, and outside factors influenced the tone much more then than it does now. It’s like saying a mark IV can get the black album tone.... it can’t.

 

[braintheory]

Exactly... that’s a killer point... they sound amazing by themselves with nothing else in the room, like if you haven’t played guitar in a few days and you pick up a guitar and haven’t played in awhile and that’s what you plug into first: if that makes sense... but compared to something you loved for years and know well, it wouldn’t be close. Again... YMMV..... and I’m sure lots of great tones have been made with Friedman’s... I’m just not aware of any...although many of my friends who play professionally with me in Nashville do use Friedman amps and sound great in that situation no doubt....and before someone says AIC or something like that, that doesn’t count, because there are far too many other factors that don’t exist today when it comes to guitar tone. Guitar chains are much simpler today than they were in the years past, and outside factors influenced the tone much more then than it does now. It’s like saying a mark IV can get the black album tone.... it can’t.

That’s why I always try to stress the importance of side by side comparisons and reference points. I never form any opinions on any gear, no matter how impressed or unimpressed I initially am until doing a comparison and then I feel comfortable having a strong opinion

I’ve heard plenty of tones with Friedman’s that to me sounded “nice” or adequate/functional, but never any that wowed me, but honestly very very few amps made in the last 20 years or so have had much wow factor to me. I don’t know much yet about recording (I’m learning), but I’d have to say some of the Larry clips I’ve heard would be the best recorded high gain tones I’ve heard so far (haven’t heard one in person yet) and among those very few amps I was meaning. I’ve never heard such rock solid definition in fast palm mutes in any other amp and it was not boosted

 

[anomaly]

Exactly... that’s a killer point... they sound amazing by themselves with nothing else in the room, like if you haven’t played guitar in a few days and you pick up a guitar and haven’t played in awhile and that’s what you plug into first: if that makes sense... but compared to something you loved for years and know well, it wouldn’t be close. Again... YMMV..... and I’m sure lots of great tones have been made with Friedman’s... I’m just not aware of any...although many of my friends who play professionally with me in Nashville do use Friedman amps and sound great in that situation no doubt....and before someone says AIC or something like that, that doesn’t count, because there are far too many other factors that don’t exist today when it comes to guitar tone. Guitar chains are much simpler today than they were in the years past, and outside factors influenced the tone much more then than it does now. It’s like saying a mark IV can get the black album tone.... it can’t.

Neither can a IIC+ get the black album tone. Too much EQ'ing and layering going on there, but it's as close as you'll get with plugging straight into any amp.

Actually, a Mark IV can get close to the black album tone too, obviously not exact, but after a IIC+ it would be the next amp in line IMO.

 

[Veritas0Aequitas]

Fair assessment, fellas. I was leaning more towards the Herbert Mk3. I know there are other options but I really like the sound of that amp, the versatility and the flexibility. 3 channels, MIDI switchable.

But the IIC+, Mark III and IV, Naylor Duel, and Badlander are all on the list. The IIC+ Is tops buy expensive. I will look at the IV.

The problem I'm having with the Mark series is that I get confused with the letters and numbers and they all kind of blend together for me. Not sure what direction to go

 

[Racerxrated]

I agree with most of what's been said; however I do think the Friedman line has the ability to get much brighter and cut much better than the previous versions from a few years ago. It is the more 'polished recorded tone' amp line; but the earlier versions I could max the presence and treble and STILL not get it bright enough. The recent versions can get much brighter thankfully.
I think if the OP wants an amp that will cut and give a great lead tone, I'd go with a BE Deluxe IF I were going Friedman. JJ will be too dark and for that matter, so will the Herbert. IMO.

 

[braintheory]

Fair assessment, fellas. I was leaning more towards the Herbert Mk3. I know there are other options but I really like the sound of that amp, the versatility and the flexibility. 3 channels, MIDI switchable.

But the IIC+, Mark III and IV, Naylor Duel, and Badlander are all on the list. The IIC+ Is tops buy expensive. I will look at the IV.

The problem I'm having with the Mark series is that I get confused with the letters and numbers and they all kind of blend together for me. Not sure what direction to go

I would say the marks, Badlander and Naylor also have lots of flexibility and versatility and great cleans, but of course no midi like the Herbert. The Mark iii and IV probably are the next best thing you can do if you want a iic+, imo the right Mark iii is the better option

 

[braintheory]

I agree with most of what's been said; however I do think the Friedman line has the ability to get much brighter and cut much better than the previous versions from a few years ago. It is the more 'polished recorded tone' amp line; but the earlier versions I could max the presence and treble and STILL not get it bright enough. The recent versions can get much brighter thankfully.
I think if the OP wants an amp that will cut and give a great lead tone, I'd go with a BE Deluxe IF I were going Friedman. JJ will be too dark and for that matter, so will the Herbert. IMO.

I didn’t find to the recent Friedman’s to lack brightness or cut, but like VESmedic said, they still imo don’t really have as much teeth or aggression in that area as other amps and like you said still polished and not raw or as aggressive. It’s like they took away every quality about a Marshall that anyone may conceivably not like just to be safe and homogenized the sound. Kinda like making a very diplomatic/polite amp that’s afraid to offend anyone

The BE Deluxe probably would be the way to go if you go Friedman. Mezzabarba was another good one in that ballpark. Kinda like a darker SLO/Marshall thing

 

[Racerxrated]

I didn’t find to the recent Friedman’s to lack brightness or cut, but like VESmedic said, they still imo don’t really have as much teeth or aggression in that area as other amps and like you said still polished and not raw or as aggressive. It’s like they took away every quality about a Marshall that anyone may conceivably not like and homogenized the sound. Kinda like making a very diplomatic/polite amp that’s afraid to offend anyone

The BE Deluxe probably would be the way to go if you go Friedman. Mezzabarba was another good one in that ballpark. Kinda like a darker SLO/Marshall thing

I agree; I'm into the raw open vintage boosted or modded Marshall sound...the sound that starts like that and maybe ends up recorded smoother and more polished..but I don't want to play an amp that sounds like a processed recording. One thing about the Friedmans is they are super easy to play; almost solid-state in that regard where a vintage Marshall shows your mistakes/mis-frets, the Friedmans have a way of almost covering it up lol. Not a bad thing at all haha.

 

[braintheory]

I agree; I'm into the raw open vintage boosted or modded Marshall sound...the sound that starts like that and maybe ends up recorded smoother and more polished..but I don't want to play an amp that sounds like a processed recording. One thing about the Friedmans is they are super easy to play; almost solid-state in that regard where a vintage Marshall shows your mistakes/mis-frets, the Friedmans have a way of almost covering it up lol. Not a bad thing at all haha.

That’s true about their feel and maybe part of why many guys love them. My CCV has a feel kinda like that too, but better imo. I guess if that feel is a major factor, then perhaps Friedman’s would be one of the better options

 

[Veritas0Aequitas]

That’s true about their feel and maybe part of why many guys love them. My CCV has a feel kinda like that too, but better imo. I guess if that feel is a major factor, then perhaps Friedman’s would be one of the better options

Listened to the IIC+, III, and IV.

The IIC+ is out of the price range.

Given that, can you help me understand the III and IV? I'm doing research and trying to figure it out. Seems like the IV might suit me well since I want nice leads, cleans, and I put bright pickups in my guitars so a darker amp would be ok.

 

[braintheory]

Listened to the IIC+, III, and IV.

The IIC+ is out of the price range.

Given that, can you help me understand the III and IV? I'm doing research and trying to figure it out. Seems like the IV might suit me well since I want nice leads, cleans, and I put bright pickups in my guitars so a darker amp would be ok.

Other guys here can probably guide you with iii’s and iv’s better than I can, but I’d say the right Mark iii and if it’s well dialed in, I like more than the IV for leads and cleans and if you want darker then I guess just don’t get a blue or green stripe. I have a no stripe Mark iii coliseum with the ++ mod by Mike B and even stock it was surprisingly similar sounding to my iic+ hrg (the other stripe Mark iii’s I had were very different), so if other no stripe or black stripes are like mine then maybe that could be the way to go. Wasn’t the same sounding as the c+, but the next closest thing I’ve heard

 

[Racerxrated]

Other guys here can probably guide you with iii’s and iv’s better than I can, but I’d say the right Mark iii and if it’s well dialed in, I like more than the IV for leads and cleans and if you want darker then I guess just don’t get a blue or green stripe. I have a no stripe Mark iii coliseum with the ++ mod by Mike B and even stock it was surprisingly similar sounding to my iic+ hrg (the other stripe Mark iii’s I had were very different), so if other no stripe or black stripes are like mine then maybe that could be the way to go. Wasn’t exactly the same sounding as the c+, but the closest thing I’ve heard

Sam and I agree on lots of tone topics...but in this case, the closest to any of the 4 C+s I've owned has been the Mark IV and for me, it's not close. Now, full disclosure, I've only had 2 Mark IIIs but I found them to be very sterile, flat and both had a very abrasive top end that I couldn't dial out. Both amps were loaded with Mesa 415s too, which is the best tube for those amps. While I had those 2, I found a 2C which would turn out to be my first C+ after the upgrade and the Mark IIIs (I had a Purple and Red at the same time) sounded like the idiot cousins of the 2C lol. You can tell they're related but just not close in tone. IMO. Now, a year later I would try a Mark IV and I was surprised as to how nice the tone was, and that it was fairly close to my C+. Not exact or super close, but way closer than either of those Mark IIIs. In fact, in the same store I played a brand new JP2C and thought the IV did a better C+ imitation than the JP. Go figure.

 

[braintheory]

Sam and I agree on lots of tone topics...but in this case, the closest to any of the 4 C+s I've owned has been the Mark IV and for me, it's not close. Now, full disclosure, I've only had 2 Mark IIIs but I found them to be very sterile, flat and both had a very abrasive top end that I couldn't dial out. Both amps were loaded with Mesa 415s too, which is the best tube for those amps. While I had those 2, I found a 2C which would turn out to be my first C+ after the upgrade and the Mark IIIs (I had a Purple and Red at the same time) sounded like the idiot cousins of the 2C lol. You can tell they're related but just not close in tone. IMO. Now, a year later I would try a Mark IV and I was surprised as to how nice the tone was, and that it was fairly close to my C+. Not exact or super close, but way closer than either of those Mark IIIs. In fact, in the same store I played a brand new JP2C and thought the IV did a better C+ imitation than the JP. Go figure.

The only purple stripe I’ve tried had no eq, so I can’t have much input there and my time with red stripes were brief, but the others I’ve had (1 green, 2 blue coli and 1 no stripe), while clearly not as good as as a iic+, I liked more than the IV’s I’ve tried and found if anything the IV’s to be tamer, flatter and less raw/more polished sounding. The blue’s and green’s do have a very abrasive top end that I’ve grown to hate, but I dislike still even more the opposite when an amp is too polite and I guess when I had the green I didn’t have many other amps at the time, so my ears just adapted to it, but probably wouldn’t put up with it today. The no stripe didn’t have that harsh high end like the other III’s I tried. Maybe even a little less intense highs than my actual iic+ until it got the ++ mod by Mike B. I say maybe a no stripe Mark iii or maybe Mark IVA would be the ones, but honestly, not to sound spoiled, but I just stopped thinking about these other marks almost a decade ago since getting a iic+

 

[Veritas0Aequitas]

The only purple stripe I’ve tried had no eq, so I can’t have much input there and my time with red stripes were brief, but the others I’ve had (1 green, 2 blue coli and 1 no stripe), while clearly not as good as as a iic+, I liked more than the IV’s I’ve tried and found if anything the IV’s to be tamer, flatter and less raw/more polished sounding. The blue’s and green’s do have a very abrasive top end that I’ve grown to hate, but I dislike still even more the opposite when an amp is too polite and I guess when I had the green I didn’t have many other amps at the time, so my ears just adapted to it, but probably wouldn’t put up with it today. The no stripe didn’t have that harsh high end like the other III’s I tried. Maybe even a little less intense highs than my actual iic+ until it got the ++ mod by Mike B. I say maybe a no stripe Mark iii or maybe Mark IVA would be the ones, but honestly, not to sound spoiled, but I just stopped thinking about these other marks almost a decade ago since getting a iic+

I love the idea of looking at a Mark IIC+, III, or IV but this is all too complicated.

The IIC+ is too expensive, the III's and IV's have so many variations it sounds like and nuances. It would drive me crazy trying to figure that out right now... I have no way to play them all and trying to decipher tone over the internet gets me amps I just want to resell. Like the Wizard I just bought and hate.

I guess that's another reason why the Herbert Mk3 appeals to me. All of these amps sound amazing but I don't know which one to choose. Too many. It's just overwhelming.

 

[braintheory]

I love the idea of looking at a Mark IIC+, III, or IV but this is all too complicated.

The IIC+ is too expensive, the III's and IV's have so many variations it sounds like and nuances. It would drive me crazy trying to figure that out right now... I have no way to play them all and trying to decipher tone over the internet gets me amps I just want to resell. Like the Wizard I just bought and hate.

I guess that's another reason why the Herbert Mk3 appeals to me. All of these amps sound amazing but I don't know which one to choose. Too many. It's just overwhelming.

Descriptions on forums can only do so much. Best thing to do is find a place within driving distance to try them out in person if at all possible, probably won’t be doable though for most of the amps mentioned. With the Herbert I think I may have liked the ones before the MKIII’s a little more, but would have needed to compare to say for sure and am guessing the earlier ones would also be a bit cheaper. You said you liked the VH4’s, so I guess maybe a Herbert could be a safer bet

No matter which version Herbert, Mark iic+, iii or IV you’d get, they should all at least be able to get very saturated tones if needed and all very different sounding than Wizard’s

 

[Emg77]

I love the idea of looking at a Mark IIC+, III, or IV but this is all too complicated.

The IIC+ is too expensive, the III's and IV's have so many variations it sounds like and nuances. It would drive me crazy trying to figure that out right now... I have no way to play them all and trying to decipher tone over the internet gets me amps I just want to resell. Like the Wizard I just bought and hate.

I guess that's another reason why the Herbert Mk3 appeals to me. All of these amps sound amazing but I don't know which one to choose. Too many. It's just overwhelming.

I will say, that if the Wizard wasn't your thing I don't think a Mark III would be your thing either. If you're gong from a VH4 to Wizard that is a very stark contrast. Sounds like you re quite fond of compressed tone. The Marks III'S are quite bright and raw compared to Diezels. I might also suggest, not play the VH4 for a while and give your ear some time to adjust to the Wizard. But if it's not your thing I get it. Friedmans would probably be more up your alley. As far as getting another Diezel, in my experience, and I have had most of them, they are all in the same ball park. In my opinion, it would be redundant.


Oh, I really dig the Badlander. Big and chunky sits in a band mix very well. A lot of great tones can be had out of it.