Do you think modelers will get there in the next 10 years?

Markedman said:
Records (LP's) over took CD's in sales in 2020 FYI.
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Ya because MP3s made CDs go the way of a dinosaur. I wouldn't be surprised if VHS outsells CDs in 2020. There is no analog dominance if you include streaming services and digital distribution.

Vinyl is like 1% of sales. I can't even click the box to read the number on my phone because it is too small. LPs are 5%. By comparison, paid streaming sites are 57%. I wouldn't call that a comeback.
https://www.riaa.com/u-s-sales-database/
 
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[ Donnie B. ] said:
Hasn't this been out already or is that just Beta?
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Just the beta. The 2nd beta was released late Tuesday night, which had some more refinements and a few more amps added in.

There’s definitely a difference but it gets sketchy discussing that stuff because the haters love to jump on the “Oh, does it sound more realer than realer now?”. Unless you’ve spent time with an AxeFX before and really got to know how the amps sounded, you’d have a hard time hearing the differences. Then of course, you’ve got the guys who have had them for years but don’t really get into the intricacies of a distorted tone and end up saying they‘re hearing changes in areas where nothing changed and those are generally the guys who go way overboard with the update hype stuff.

The biggest thing for me with Cygnus is that I was able to remove all the PEQ’s I put after my cab blocks to get rid of that annoying 3000k-4000k noise I’d hear pre-Cygnus. It’s like the focus was shifted from there down to the lower mids. Cliff made a comment about the update before the first beta, how it made things go from “Yeeeeeeee” to “Yoooooow” or something to that effect, made no sense until I heard it but I know exactly what he’s talking about now. The “eeeee” would be that high end nasty shit and the “ooooow” is the lower mids.

Definitely dialing in presets much faster than I was before, especially with not needing a PEQ to tweak after the fact. I LOVE the Recto models post-Cygnus because they just fucking roar. I wasn’t even using them before Cygnus and for two weeks my Recto preset has been my go-to, if not the Herbie or SLO.

Haven’t had enough time with Beta 2 to form an opinion. The Jeffrey Wiedlant preset I made last night was a noticeable improvement since the last time I tried making one (pre-Cygnus) as I really did not like the way the JCM800 model felt. I haven’t hit “No More Tears“ just yet, but my ears were fucking toast after 8 hours in the studio and then trying to build a preset.
 
RevDrucifer said:
Just the beta. The 2nd beta was released late Tuesday night, which had some more refinements and a few more amps added in.

There’s definitely a difference but it gets sketchy discussing that stuff because the haters love to jump on the “Oh, does it sound more realer than realer now?”. Unless you’ve spent time with an AxeFX before and really got to know how the amps sounded, you’d have a hard time hearing the differences. Then of course, you’ve got the guys who have had them for years but don’t really get into the intricacies of a distorted tone and end up saying they‘re hearing changes in areas where nothing changed and those are generally the guys who go way overboard with the update hype stuff.

The biggest thing for me with Cygnus is that I was able to remove all the PEQ’s I put after my cab blocks to get rid of that annoying 3000k-4000k noise I’d hear pre-Cygnus. It’s like the focus was shifted from there down to the lower mids. Cliff made a comment about the update before the first beta, how it made things go from “Yeeeeeeee” to “Yoooooow” or something to that effect, made no sense until I heard it but I know exactly what he’s talking about now. The “eeeee” would be that high end nasty shit and the “ooooow” is the lower mids.

Definitely dialing in presets much faster than I was before, especially with not needing a PEQ to tweak after the fact. I LOVE the Recto models post-Cygnus because they just fucking roar. I wasn’t even using them before Cygnus and for two weeks my Recto preset has been my go-to, if not the Herbie or SLO.

Haven’t had enough time with Beta 2 to form an opinion. The Jeffrey Wiedlant preset I made last night was a noticeable improvement since the last time I tried making one (pre-Cygnus) as I really did not like the way the JCM800 model felt. I haven’t hit “No More Tears“ just yet, but my ears were fucking toast after 8 hours in the studio and then trying to build a preset.
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An in-depth post like this one really makes me happy because it's someone who is really in deep on his AXEFX (something I have not owned or tried yet) sharing real information in a meaningful and easy to understand way.
 
The big change with Cygnus IMHO is that it "fixed" Ares's problem where the master volume settings started to overdrive and compress absurdly early and just kept going beyond what you'd get with the actual amp.

NMV amps now seem more accurate with the virtual master dimed, and amps with a master volume have a wider zone where they sound ok to me.

I don't use the deep editing and think the thing sounds fine.
 
Fordman65 said:
While thats pretty impressive, having to fo deep like that keeps me away from fractal. Most times I just want to plug and play
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I love tweaking shit and landing on exactly what’s going on inside my head. That said, the Cygnus update is certainly bringing tweaking time down to a minimum and if you’ve already got some favorite IR’s to choose from, you can be up and running in literally 2 minutes. Just need the amp + cab blocks and you’re off to the races.

Actually, Leon Todd posted a vid the other day of I think the Atomica model, left it on all the stock settings and it was a gig worthy tone.

I also set aside time to tweak and time to play/record. I’ve been working on an album for a while now and had to learn how to divide my time between mixing/tweaking and recording/writing because mixing those up just wastes a lot of time for me. So if I’m mixing one night and hear something I’m not digging with the guitars or bass, I’ll start tweaking the preset while using the DI I recorded originally. At most, all I need is a little LPF/HPF in Logic and I’m good to go, no more EQ’ing the shit out of things to make them fit in the mix.
 
cardinal said:
The big change with Cygnus IMHO is that it "fixed" Ares's problem where the master volume settings started to overdrive and compress absurdly early and just kept going beyond what you'd get with the actual amp.

NMV amps now seem more accurate with the virtual master dimed, and amps with a master volume have a wider zone where they sound ok to me.

I don't use the deep editing and think the thing sounds fine.
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I’ve practically stopped using the Ideal page of the amp block after Cygnus and found that I‘ve had to go turn the High Treble all the way down on my existing presets. I think I used the High Treble a little bit with the JCM800 preset I made last night, but the cabs I picked were a little on the darker side.

You certainly don’t have to go deep with these, but man, that Speaker Impedance Curve is fuckin’ fun to play with.
 
rottingcorpse said:
An in-depth post like this one really makes me happy because it's someone who is really in deep on his AXEFX (something I have not owned or tried yet) sharing real information in a meaningful and easy to understand way.
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Thanks, brother!

Probably helps that I couldn’t care less about debating anything with anyone. Having a conversation is one thing, but it’s not my job to change anyone’s mind and there are much better ways to spend one’s time than that futile task such as that. I’m not looking to change anyone’s mind, just provide my experiences as someone who loves all gear.

Side note, I think I ended up on this forum because of you, indirectly. I could totally be wrong about this as it happened years ago in my heavy drinking days, but I remember scouring the internet for Dimebag stories and some posts on the Dean forum somehow brought me here. I can’t remember if it was you posting or maybe....allovertonite? alloverit? Can’t remember anymore. I may even totally be wrong about you and my memory just tossed you in the mix for some reason.
 
Just an observation I've made, alot of people say they just want to plug and play and dont want to wait for computers and modellers to boot up.

The alternative is waiting for tubes to warm up.
 
RevDrucifer said:
I’ve practically stopped using the Ideal page of the amp block after Cygnus and found that I‘ve had to go turn the High Treble all the way down on my existing presets. I think I used the High Treble a little bit with the JCM800 preset I made last night, but the cabs I picked were a little on the darker side.

You certainly don’t have to go deep with these, but man, that Speaker Impedance Curve is fuckin’ fun to play with.
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Oh, I do adjust the speaker impedance curve. I guess that's deep editing, but I guess it seems so intuitive to use that I don't consider it "deep".

I also tend to flip the "fat" switch when using the C+ sim, but that apparently just mimics the pull treble shift of the actual amp.

Most of the other parameters I don't even understand what they'd do if I adjusted them, so I stay away.
 
Didn't these 'sound just like a tube amp' 13yrs ago when the axefx ultra came out out?
Guys were running around selling their tube amps back then.

Yet everyone is still chasing the latest model because 'it sounds even more just like a tube amp..'.

Modelers are the iphones of guitar amps. New model is always better.

The units themselves can sound great don't get me wrong.
I was an early adopter of the axefx and loved it!
Very convenient for guys lugging around to various gigs.

I could never own one again because the options would drive me mad with endless tweaking.
I already tweak tube amps too much :)
 
saxxamafone said:
Modelers are the iphones of guitar amps. New model is always better.
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I don't think I've ever seen it put so perfectly.

10 years ago we all saw the videos of how the Kemper perfectly replicates an amp. Now it's 'old tech' and now the Quad Vortex Moretex or whatever it's called is twice as perfect. Oh and try selling an older AXE unit for even 1/2 of what you paid for it.
 
RevDrucifer said:
Cliff made a comment about the update before the first beta, how it made things go from “Yeeeeeeee” to “Yoooooow” or something to that effect.
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Makes you wonder why he didn't just make it go Yooooow in the first place. Thing that kills me with Fractal is the fact you spend
big bucks for a new unit and then within weeks you start getting updates that have notes like:
[improves this]
[fixes errors with that]
[eliminates problems with this]
And then this keeps going on every couple of weeks for the life of the product.

And now Cygnus is being touted as a major paradigm shift in Fractal performance.

And yet, like @ZEN Amps said above, 10 years ago they were marketing them as already 100% accurate.
 
ZEN Amps said:
Oh and try selling an older AXE unit for even 1/2 of what you paid for it.
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True, although OTOH, try selling a full size 100W (so vintage Marks don't count ;-) ) tube amp that's not a Recto, Plexi, 5150 or JCM800 these days for more than half the original salesprice.
Sold my Sig:X and Engl SE EL34 relatively for chump change in the last couple of years.
And if I now would want to sell my Invader, good luck getting half.

The market *has* changed and whether it's smaller heads, lunchboxes, Kempers, AXE FX's, less gigging guys (even pre Covid) that want to schlep a 30" wide, 100W, 50-60lbs head + cab, it's harder to sell such amps these days, at least in Europe.
 
311splawndude said:
That pretty much sums up me but I see the benefits of modelers where the portability and tweakability for those where that is important to them.
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This is completely the opposite of my experience. Once you have your profile made then it's done and you don't have to change anything except possibly in and out levels. For the most part, it is like a Floyd Rose. Once you have it in tune and the strings are stretched then it stays in tune. Out of the case and in tune and ready to go.

I honestly don't get how you can't not be tweaking a tube amp. I have come in the next day, turn it on and things sound different from how they did the day before. Most tube amps I have required me at some stage to change out tubes and bias them to get a good tone from them. Then there is mic placement for recording. A whole other world of tweaking there. I can understand EQing with environment changes but I couldn't imagine playing a tube amp and not tweaking it.
ZEN Amps said:
10 years ago we all saw the videos of how the Kemper perfectly replicates an amp. Now it's 'old tech' and now the Quad Vortex Moretex or whatever it's called is twice as perfect. Oh and try selling an older AXE unit for even 1/2 of what you paid for it.
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How can it be old tech when it's the same Kemper unit? You mean software updates or new software to use it with. I think you will find that the updates are addressing new features added and not the older stable features. Such as now compatible with this software or plugin. Removed bug when combining this new boutique pedal's odd effect in combination with this pedal here. It is not like it is saying improved JCM800 tone or improved Mesa Boogie MKV tone.

More processing power gets you more blocks and the ability to probably use multiple microphones rather than say limited to two. However, these units are already well capable of replicating any rig you see on stage. Another thing is that newer units are usually aimed at combining the profiler and the stomps together into one unit instead of needing two separate pieces. Quad Vortex is just another system. Like a Helix or Kemper or Headrush or Bias FX or whatever.

As for resale value on a tube amp. It totally depends on how many are out in the wild and the demand. Take a Marshall DSL40 for example. You could pick them up near mint for 2/3rds the price of new. Also depends on the milage of the amp and the cost to repair and refurbish it. You can see people buying vintage Marshall's and needed to put some more money into them to get them up to scratch again. Then there is a big problem that some gear is just special compared to others of the same model. When it's gone, it's gone. As long as you have your profiles on a USB you can walk into any music store with your digital of choice, load up your profiles and you are ready to go. This isn't the same for Brian May or The Edge or Neil Young. They collect the same model to find the ones that sound the best. Their exact amps are like gold to them.
 
[ Donnie B. ] said:
Makes you wonder why he didn't just make it go Yooooow in the first place. Thing that kills me with Fractal is the fact you spend
big bucks for a new unit and then within weeks you start getting updates that have notes like:
[improves this]
[fixes errors with that]
[eliminates problems with this]
And then this keeps going on every couple of weeks for the life of the product.

And now Cygnus is being touted as a major paradigm shift in Fractal performance.

And yet, like @ZEN Amps said above, 10 years ago they were marketing them as already 100% accurate.
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How is this different from modding a tube amp? Or more accurate, the "idea" of modding tube amps.
Of course, unless you know how to do it yourself, the amp must be transported to the modder. The mod can only be applied to one amp at the time, even if it's a "standard" mod. And it's usually a quite expensive job.

These are "mods", that can be applied to all the "amps" at the same time, if the owner wants it.

If everyone was happy with the sound from their new amp, this wouldn't be a business.

Critical updates for the function of the piece of equipment don't apply here, of course. It has to work from the get go.

My only modeller is a Pod XT pro, so I have no real feelings about modellers one way or the other :)
 
ke2 said:
How is this different from modding a tube amp? Or more accurate, the "idea" of modding tube amps.
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Comparing 'potential' amp mods with Fractal updates is apples and oranges. Actually more like apples and onions.
Most amp owners never get mods.
This is the most recent FM3 Fractal update:

Release Notes:
• Added Per-Preset and Global Performance Pages. These provide a new means of intuitive hands-on control of FM3 sound parameters with no menu delving required. (A PDF overview is included with the zip file containing this firmware release.)
• Added “Downtune” and “Display Mode” parameters to the Tuner, and added the option “All” to Tuner Input Source so it can track both input 1 and/or input 2.
• Added Setup: Global: Config “Output 1 EQ Type” and “Output 2 EQ Type” options for graphic or parametric, including the option to turn each EQ off.
• Added “Footswitch Tuner Mode” (Setup: FC Controllers: Config) which uses the onboard LED rings on the FM3 to help you tune visually.
• Added “Detector Type” (RMS or Peak) to the downward expander effect (Gate Block).
• Added Diffusion Amount and Time parameters to Crystal Echoes effect (Pitch block).
• Added Multitap Master Chorus rate and depth parameters.
• Added LFO High Cut parameter and markers to ADSR graphs.
• External Controller “Initial Values” can now be set to any value from 0 to 100%.
• Improved the rate of communication with a connected FC controller (especially FC-12).
• Improved how the FM3 remains connected to FM3-Edit after certain USB “sleep” activity.
• The UI is now more responsive when a high CPU preset is loaded.
• FC: Preset/Select in Bank switches will now flash after a bank change until you make a selection. This will not happen if your Bank switch is set to automatically load the FIRST or CURRENT preset in the new bank.
• FC: You can now install the “OMG9” FC settings directly from the SETUP: FC Controllers: Reset page of the FM3, with no download required.
• FC Added: “2nd Press = Previous Scene” option to the Scene/Select function. When set to “ON” this allows you to press the footswitch for the current scene to return to the previous one.
• Fixed: Overlapping text when “Prompt on Edited Preset Change” is enabled.
• Fixed: Global Input and Output volumes now initialize correctly when an expression pedal is used. (These parameters are located on the “Setup: MIDI/Remote: Other” page.)
• Fixed: UI now updates when you disable Tuner “Use Offsets” in FM3-Edit while tuning.
• Fixed: “COPY SCENE” and “SWAP SCENE” now correctly copy or swap scene data in the Scene MIDI block and Control Switch “Per Scene” settings.
• Fixed zippering that occurred in some circumstances when using an external MIDI modifier.
• Fixed: Setting “Output 2 Copy” to anything other than “NONE” no longer overwrites the regular OUT2 signal.
• Fixed: Auto-engage now works consistently with modifiers on the amp and delay blocks.
• FC Fixed: the main LCD on a remote FC should now update correctly in all circumstances.
• Fixed: Activating the tuner with “hold” on a TEMPO switch will no longer affect the tempo.
• Fixed: the MIDI block UI now consistently displays the current scene.
• Fixed: Multiband Compressor now works as expected.
• Fixed: Global parameters under Midi/Remote now reset correctly to default values.
• Fixed: User Cab should no longer be able to accidentally overwrite Factory Cab 1.
• Fixed: Metronome OUT2 level should be correct in all cases.
 
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[ Donnie B. ] said:
Comparing 'potential' amp mods with Fractal updates is apples and oranges. Actually more like apples and onions.
Most amp owners never get mods.
This is the most recent FM3 Fractal update:

Release Notes:
• Added Per-Preset and Global Performance Pages. These provide a new means of intuitive hands-on control of FM3 sound parameters with no menu delving required. (A PDF overview is included with the zip file containing this firmware release.)
• Added “Downtune” and “Display Mode” parameters to the Tuner, and added the option “All” to Tuner Input Source so it can track both input 1 and/or input 2.
• Added Setup: Global: Config “Output 1 EQ Type” and “Output 2 EQ Type” options for graphic or parametric, including the option to turn each EQ off.
• Added “Footswitch Tuner Mode” (Setup: FC Controllers: Config) which uses the onboard LED rings on the FM3 to help you tune visually.
• Added “Detector Type” (RMS or Peak) to the downward expander effect (Gate Block).
• Added Diffusion Amount and Time parameters to Crystal Echoes effect (Pitch block).
• Added Multitap Master Chorus rate and depth parameters.
• Added LFO High Cut parameter and markers to ADSR graphs.
• External Controller “Initial Values” can now be set to any value from 0 to 100%.
• Improved the rate of communication with a connected FC controller (especially FC-12).
• Improved how the FM3 remains connected to FM3-Edit after certain USB “sleep” activity.
• The UI is now more responsive when a high CPU preset is loaded.
• FC: Preset/Select in Bank switches will now flash after a bank change until you make a selection. This will not happen if your Bank switch is set to automatically load the FIRST or CURRENT preset in the new bank.
• FC: You can now install the “OMG9” FC settings directly from the SETUP: FC Controllers: Reset page of the FM3, with no download required.
• FC Added: “2nd Press = Previous Scene” option to the Scene/Select function. When set to “ON” this allows you to press the footswitch for the current scene to return to the previous one.
• Fixed: Overlapping text when “Prompt on Edited Preset Change” is enabled.
• Fixed: Global Input and Output volumes now initialize correctly when an expression pedal is used. (These parameters are located on the “Setup: MIDI/Remote: Other” page.)
• Fixed: UI now updates when you disable Tuner “Use Offsets” in FM3-Edit while tuning.
• Fixed: “COPY SCENE” and “SWAP SCENE” now correctly copy or swap scene data in the Scene MIDI block and Control Switch “Per Scene” settings.
• Fixed zippering that occurred in some circumstances when using an external MIDI modifier.
• Fixed: Setting “Output 2 Copy” to anything other than “NONE” no longer overwrites the regular OUT2 signal.
• Fixed: Auto-engage now works consistently with modifiers on the amp and delay blocks.
• FC Fixed: the main LCD on a remote FC should now update correctly in all circumstances.
• Fixed: Activating the tuner with “hold” on a TEMPO switch will no longer affect the tempo.
• Fixed: the MIDI block UI now consistently displays the current scene.
• Fixed: Multiband Compressor now works as expected.
• Fixed: Global parameters under Midi/Remote now reset correctly to default values.
• Fixed: User Cab should no longer be able to accidentally overwrite Factory Cab 1.
• Fixed: Metronome OUT2 level should be correct in all cases.
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Like I said, I omit obvious updates that make the unit work.

If you got an original Axe-fx ten years ago, put it in a rack, and never hooked it up to anything but your power amp, you'd be like most amp users. And you would probably play and be happy. I would probably use it like that. I've never hooked my XT Pro up to anything the last 15 years.

But most of that list are more "fixes" that "updates". It should work when you unpack it. The only difference being you have to wrap up an amp, and return it to the dealer.
 
ZEN Amps said:
I don't think I've ever seen it put so perfectly.

10 years ago we all saw the videos of how the Kemper perfectly replicates an amp. Now it's 'old tech' and now the Quad Vortex Moretex or whatever it's called is twice as perfect. Oh and try selling an older AXE unit for even 1/2 of what you paid for it.
Click to expand...

Find me one AxeFX II XL+ for under a grand.
 
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