Do you think modelers will get there in the next 10 years?

[ Donnie B. ]

Well-known member
If it weren't so long a quote I'd put on a t-shirt just to trigger the digital crowd.

:D
shirt.jpg
 

PBGas

Well-known member
At least they are constantly fixing and improving the product on a regular basis. I'd rather have that the other companies sitting on a needed update for over a year just to realize that when they updated they broke something else. LOL.
The hardcore digital guys will flame me I'm sure. That's cool, I can take it. My question to you - why so hellbent on convincing us tube amp lovers we're wrong, don't get it, aren't listening properly etc?

I own lots of amps, and a Kemper, previously an AXE II and some other modellers. The digital units, regardless of how many months of tweaking just don't sound or feel as good to me. They don't bring me that much joy. They don't inspire me so much and make me smile. There's often debate about what is opinion, and what is fact. Yes of course most of the time, but there's no disputing personal preference and experience. Why get so upset, continue to post essays on why your opinion is superior and keep flogging the horse?

As for resale, I stupidly bought a new Kemper and maybe $1200 worth of profiles. No way in hell I'm getting 50% of that 'investment' back. My AXE II I bought for just over $2000 I think, sold for $850. Of course this can and does happen with all sorts of gear, but anything digital is usually hit the hardest.

A friend put it really well a little while back after playing through my Kemper, saying "I feel like a kid in a lolly shop'. Afterwards he played through a few of my high end amps and said 'forget feeling like a kid, now I feel like a man.'

If it weren't so long a quote I'd put on a t-shirt just to trigger the digital crowd. Flame away.

No flaming at all. You like what you like. If you are an amp guy, then by all means, enjoy. I love amps as well but don't have any nowadays. Buying $1200 worth of profiles tells me then and there that it wasn't working for you. I am not a Kemper fan at all. I got stuck in that piece of trying to find the right proflie as well but there was no way I was going to start buying a bunch of them only to be disappointed.

Sounds like you sold your Axe II for far less then you could have gotten as well. Again though, I get it. I've been guilty of this when I wanted to move something quickly that wasn't working for me anymore.

At the end of the day, these devices are trying to emulate the real thing and if you already have the real thing and love it, then enjoy it.
I always have the thought of getting another amp in the back of my mind and I may get one again.

This whole this vs. that crap is nothing more then a perception one has on what they hear or like to hear. I like using what I use because it is convenient, gives me a lot of options, sounds good to my ears and for what I need and is most of all reliable especially when gigging or whenever we are able to get back to that.

Growing up in the early 80s playing...I remember how few high gain amp choices we had at the time compared to what we can get now.

Run what you brung and have some fun!
 

cardinal

Well-known member
I can certainly see some criticism for having fixes a year into production, but at the same time, GTA V came out in 2013 and there are still bug fixes with every update 7 years later. Part of that reason is because some of those bugs only popped up after an update, which could be the case with the FM3 (I never actually pay attention because I don’t own one).

With the first Cygnus beta, there was an issue with the 5153 Red Channel that the update caused, which has been fixed in the newest beta. Unless you’ve got the history of the FM3 and where those issues started, it’s hard to tell if they were there from the start or an update caused them.

Dude thanks for the heads up on the 5153 red. I was wondering what happened there. Saw your post and uploaded to the newest beta and my Gojira sound is back.
 

victim5150

Well-known member
You always have gotten a killer live sound from your AXEFXII and III.

Do you feel any difference in response and liveliness versus your EVH5150 amp setup at all? My main point is a discerning player probably could tell a difference. Now that difference may or may not be an issue with the player.
It hasn’t been an issue for me at all. I get that it would be for others though. If it sounds good then I’m happy and good to go.
 

BatmansRigTalk

Active member
The hardcore digital guys will flame me I'm sure. That's cool, I can take it. My question to you - why so hellbent on convincing us tube amp lovers we're wrong, don't get it, aren't listening properly etc?

I own lots of amps, and a Kemper, previously an AXE II and some other modellers. The digital units, regardless of how many months of tweaking just don't sound or feel as good to me. They don't bring me that much joy. They don't inspire me so much and make me smile. There's often debate about what is opinion, and what is fact. Yes of course most of the time, but there's no disputing personal preference and experience. Why get so upset, continue to post essays on why your opinion is superior and keep flogging the horse?

As for resale, I stupidly bought a new Kemper and maybe $1200 worth of profiles. No way in hell I'm getting 50% of that 'investment' back. My AXE II I bought for just over $2000 I think, sold for $850. Of course this can and does happen with all sorts of gear, but anything digital is usually hit the hardest.

A friend put it really well a little while back after playing through my Kemper, saying "I feel like a kid in a lolly shop'. Afterwards he played through a few of my high end amps and said 'forget feeling like a kid, now I feel like a man.'

If it weren't so long a quote I'd put on a t-shirt just to trigger the digital crowd. Flame away.
Look at the OP title.

The problem is not subjective opinions.

The problem is stating that there is a con with profiling hardware. That there is something objectively wrong with the units. For example, the existence of updates means something must be wrong with prior versions of the hardware. That the processing power isn't there. That the algorithms aren't there.

Will they get there in 10 years? They were there 10 years ago!

That's all. If people are going to say there are flaws with the units then they have to back that up with objective facts. That's it. It is all anyone is asking.
 

[ Donnie B. ]

Well-known member
Buddy of mine just summed up the whole analog amp vs digital amp argument with a perfect analogy.

"It's like the constant weekend duffer battle over which set of golf clubs let's them best play 40 over par..."
 
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[ Donnie B. ]

Well-known member
If people are going to say there are flaws with the units then they have to back that up with objective facts.

Other than me mistakenly bringing up aliasing, who are these "people" you keep talking about?

I see people saying "I tried both and prefer the sound/feel of tubes."

That, in and of itself, is an objective fact. What more do you want?
 

BatmansRigTalk

Active member
Other than me mistakenly bringing up aliasing, who are these "people" you keep talking about?

I see people saying "I tried both and prefer the sound/feel of tubes."

That, in and of itself, is an objective fact. What more do you want?
I already mentioned the updates claim for example.

Objectivity involves no subjectivity. Like the updates claim. Like your aliasing claim. Objective claims are supposed to exist outside of subjective opinions. So when people say they prefer one of another, that is not being objective. It is subjective.
 
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IS350xtrm

Member
We’ve been “there” for a long time. It’s really all just opinion, bias, what people are used to and the all important $$$$$$$$$$$. Honestly, it isn’t players who are keeping tube amps alive, it’s the collectors, dealers and manufacturers. It’s like everything else on earth someone has a vested monetary interest in it so the myth perpetuates. There’s no way on earth a klon is worth multiple thousands of dollars or that someone else can’t custom build you an exact copy of a Cameron or a dumble for far less money. But someone somewhere that’s a decent player has one that he likes and says nothing else is as good so a bunch of other people jump on the bandwagon and turn it into something it never was. My wife swears by Chanel bags at $6000-$10000 each because they are made of the best materials yada yada yada. Does anyone who isn’t into Chanel bags have any argument why they would cost that kind of money when you can go to any department store on earth and buy a leather bag that’ll last your wife 10 years and only cost $100? Once you get used to anything it’s fine. Give a great player a piece of crap and he’ll sound great. Give a crappy player a dumble or any other high end amp or guitar and it’s still going to sound like crap.

Ok rant over... sorry
 

Devin

Well-known member
Will they get there in 10 years? They were there 10 years ago!

That's all. If people are going to say there are flaws with the units then they have to back that up with objective facts. That's it. It is all anyone is asking.

You keep saying that as if your statement that "modelers became 100% accurate to the amps they are modeling 10 years ago" isn't also a subjective opinion :LOL:
 

BatmansRigTalk

Active member
You keep saying that as if your statement that "modelers became 100% accurate to the amps they are modeling 10 years ago" isn't also a subjective opinion :LOL:
This is an objective fact that is well demonstrated in two ways. Scientifically and through experimentation.

The experiment has to do with failing double-blind tests. If golden ears are failing to discriminate consistently between modelers and the real deal, then the profilers have achieved their objective of replicating the sound of the real deal. The second way is the scientific way. Frequencies are frequencies. That is measurable. Quantifiable. Hard science.

Attempts to prove they are different, which is what any sound engineer or scientifically minded person would do, have failed. Furthermore, no one can actually say what is causing the difference exactly or why it should cause a difference if any difference was identified.

That isn't just an opinion. It is an objective fact. It exists regardless of what my subjective opinion of it may be.

Sound is physics. Notice I didn't say music. I said sound specifically.
 

[ Donnie B. ]

Well-known member
Honestly, it isn’t players who are keeping tube amps alive, it’s the collectors,
A collector isn't going to buy anything unless it has an inherent value over and above
the dollars spent. While a Dumble falls into that category, 99% of tube amps being sold today are not being
bought up to be put in glass display cases.
dealers and manufacturers.
Manufacturers make stuff. Dealers sell stuff. I think there's a third factor involved here.

There’s no way on earth a klon is worth multiple thousands of dollars.
Same could be said of a Rolex or a Lexus.
Not sure how a Klon and Dumble got involved in the discussion about
modelers vs the real thing though.
 
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IS350xtrm

Member
I don’t disagree that Lexus’s, Rolex’s etc fall in there either. The brand names are just examples. We live in a world now where a lot of our “stuff” isn’t based on need but rather on wants. When that becomes the case the difference comes down to a persons perception. That perception to some degree has to do with experience but unless you can try every single thing available a lot of it has to do with research, reputation, etc. That’s why marketing companies, some YouTubers, etc. do so well. They influence people to buy one thing over another. Of course collectors, distributors, companies are involved. They have a vested monetary interest. Don’t fool yourself into thinking otherwise. There’s more money in advertising, influencing etc than there is in an actual product. Yeah players buy and use tube amps. They also sell a lot of tube amps to buy other tube amps because the one they thought would be “it” wasn’t. Personally I have tube amps, I buy them use them sell them buy other tube amps. I’ve also owned most of the modelers and still have an axe fx 3 mk 2. Is it better than the mk 1? I don’t know. But it’s a mk 2 so it has to be right? Probably not but I’ll buy in. If a plexi or an old fender were the end all be all the development would have stopped there. Same could be said of any current tube amp, modeler, etc. at the end of the day tech changes, opinion changes, people come along who go against the grain and manage to sway a market and all along the way someone is there looking for a way to make money. Modelers sound great these days and once you get used to them you really don’t know the difference. Do they sound identical to the amps they model? Maybe maybe not. Does it matter. Two supposedly identical amps don’t always sound the same when component tolerances etc are taken into account. I’m just happy we live in an age where we have so many choices.
 

[ Donnie B. ]

Well-known member
Modelers sound great these days and once you get used to them you really don’t know the difference.
You were making great points up to this. I wholeheartedly agree that modelers sound great these days.
That's why I use digital gear too. But I 'hear/feel' the difference so tubes are my #1.
Do they sound identical to the amps they model? Maybe maybe not. Does it matter. Two supposedly identical amps don’t always sound the same when component tolerances etc are taken into account.
You're comparing apples to onions. I've played a ton of Fender Deluxes through the decades.
You're absolutely right! They do all sound slightly different. They also all sound like a Deluxe.
In my many years of trying I have never found a model or profile from any digital platform,
including plug-ins, that makes me think I'm playing a real Fender Deluxe.
An AC30 is another one I've yet to be ENTIRELY happy with.
I’m just happy we live in an age where we have so many choices.
Yet you and others seem to take issue with those that (after extensively trying both) prefer the analog/tube choice?

"Play whatever you want... I have tube amps too... It's great to have choices..."
"BUT. Why do you say that modelers can't equal tube amps? They sound exactly the same."

see
 

IS350xtrm

Member
I don’t take exception. If that’s your preference that’s cool. I like both depending on the day, time, weather... who knows. I’m stating my opinion that modeling is fine as is using tubes. I think modeling is there. Is here to stay and only getting better. I still have and play tube amps as well. The question was when will modeling get “there”. My very experienced opinion is that it is but everyone has their own opinion. If the op didn’t want an opinion, he shouldn’t ask a question that only has an opinion for an answer. No one has a fact that proves it either way.
 

rottingcorpse

Well-known member
If Gary Holt uses his Kemper profiles for the next Exodus release(as opposed to his actual amps he profiled), I will kidnap his ass and steal the thumb drive he keeps his profiles on.

You hear me,Gary?! I'm fucking coming for you!!

(I'm kinda kidding....kinda.....I promise to release him unharmed.)
 

Devin

Well-known member
This is an objective fact that is well demonstrated in two ways. Scientifically and through experimentation.

The experiment has to do with failing double-blind tests. If golden ears are failing to discriminate consistently between modelers and the real deal, then the profilers have achieved their objective of replicating the sound of the real deal. The second way is the scientific way. Frequencies are frequencies. That is measurable. Quantifiable. Hard science.

Attempts to prove they are different, which is what any sound engineer or scientifically minded person would do, have failed. Furthermore, no one can actually say what is causing the difference exactly or why it should cause a difference if any difference was identified.

That isn't just an opinion. It is an objective fact. It exists regardless of what my subjective opinion of it may be.

Sound is physics. Notice I didn't say music. I said sound specifically.

No.
 
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