Does Anyone Else Get the Feeling that

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But your “original point” was in response to my post about abortion. You then proceeded to accuse me of moving the goalposts when I didn’t want move to where you were trying to sway it, which was a place completely void of usable data.
My response was as follows:

https://www.rig-talk.com/forum/threads/does-anyone-else-get-the-feeling-that.311328/post-3977691

and abortion or not, I stated women control access to sex and therefore have greater responsibility for outcomes - and you disagreed.
 
Since condoms are available and the pregnancy is the result of intercourse then in general it seems both should be equally responsible. But given that women primarily have to deal with the pregnancy, perhaps they ultimately bear more responsibility, or one would think that they naturally would be the more cautious about it all.
if a woman doesn't require a guy to use a condom, many guys would choose not to use one. If a woman insisted he use a condom to have intercourse, most men would do so. Again, the woman has control over that too. If she let's him hit it raw, that's on her.
 
The data isn’t objective, you just disagree with the premise.
"unwanted vaginal penetration of a female by a male with their penis by using physical force or alcohol/drug facilitation" is objective, while "unwanted sexual penetration because of being pressured in a nonphysical way by a male partner" is much less so.
 
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I do disagree
let it go.jpg




I don't have daughters so it's not high on my list of concerns.
 
if a woman doesn't require a guy to use a condom, many guys would choose not to use one. If a woman insisted he use a condom to have intercourse, most men would do so. Again, the woman has control over that too. If she let's him hit it raw, that's on her.
Sure, but I don't see how that a subsequent pregnancy is not equally the man's responsibility.
 
I would say 95%+ of millions of pregnancies each year is an even more staggering number to be a result of women allowing a guy to hit it raw and ejaculate inside her.

If you're engaging in an activity that has potential serious consequences / outcomes for you vs another person; who has most of the responsibility to take steps to avoid unwanted outcomes? It has nothing to do with math; it has everything to do with common sense.

Before birth control, women were more careful and selective about sex; now we have generations of women, many from fatherless households, with many forms of birth control, and options to murder their unborn, etc., so they've become less careful, less selective; leading to the rise in numbers of single mothers (I think in 2023, the USA black community, 72% of children are being born to single mothers; and hispanic and white aren't far behind) so the social stigma and financial challenges of being a single mother have lessened.

Again women control access to sex 95%+ of the time. The women have the risk of getting pregnant, not the man; so they have greater responsibility to ensure the outcome of intercourse is what they want. This has been true for millennia, only birth control and murder of unborn have given women options, and still the number of children born to single mothers is the majority of births in the USA.

Whatever the outcome, the women will have the primary responsibility to deal with it, not the man. Now, the law can be used to coerce a man to take responsibility, however paternity needs to be proven, and if the man has no resources not much can be done against him.

A common dual mating strategy is to cheat with the man she finds most attractive, and have the man with resources take care of her, and raise the other man's child without knowing it's not his biological child, which is roughly 10% of pregnancies, because paternity tests are not required/mandatory. This includes married couples. It's also why many women are opposed to mandatory paternity tests, because it would end this dual mating strategy option.

There are plenty of high profile stories of men who discover, much later in life after raising kids to adulthood, that those kids are not their biological offspring. I suspect the number is much higher than 10%, it's just most men don't believe the woman they love is capable of it, or it never crosses their mind, or they know it will create strife in the relationship, etc. Trust but verify.


Ding ding ding.....I"ll take "Why American society is so damn dysfunctional today" for 1000 dollars Alex.
 
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"unwanted vaginal penetration of a female by a male with their penis by using physical force or alcohol/drug facilitation" is objective, while "unwanted sexual penetration because of being pressured in a nonphysical way by a male partner" is much less so.
Actually, even "drug/alcohol facilitation" is murky, unless the guy intentionally drugged her.
 
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Sure, but I don't see how that a subsequent pregnancy is not equally the man's responsibility.
it's down to agency and basic biology. Most men would have sex with most women; women by nature are more selective. Knowing that, and the fact that women control access to sex, and bear the consequences more significantly than the man, etc., means the woman bears more responsibility for the outcome of intercourse. As I stated, if she required the man to use a condom, most would comply; if she didn't care, some men would hit it raw.
 
"unwanted vaginal penetration of a female by a male with their penis by using physical force or alcohol/drug facilitation" is objective, while "unwanted sexual penetration because of being pressured in a nonphysical way by a male partner" is much less so.

In the data follows the premise, then it is not flawed. You could certainly say the premise is flawed or objective, but there is no reason I can see to say that about the data.

I find most studies of that nature to be flawed
 
it's down to agency and basic biology. Most men would have sex with most women; women by nature are more selective. Knowing that, and the fact that women control access to sex, and bear the consequences more significantly than the man, etc., means the woman bears more responsibility for the outcome of intercourse. As I stated, if she required the man to use a condom, most would comply; if she didn't care, some men would hit it raw.

Thank you for giving acceptance a prime example of highly flawed and objective data.
 
In the data follows the premise, then it is not flawed. You could certainly say the premise is flawed or objective, but there is no reason I can see to say that about the data.
I believe in the premise that coercive sex amounts to rape in some cases. I am questioning what constitutes coercive sex as defined in the study.
 
Actually, even "drug/alcohol facilitation" is murky, unless the guy intentionally drugged her.
yes, but if a guy and girl have the same number of drinks; and both agree / consent to sex; she can change her mind and claim she didn't really consent due to alcohol; the guy doesn't have the same choice, and can't claim he was drunk.

This reinforces my point that women are seen by society around the world to control access to sex. Alcohol can reduce her control/resistance/inhibition and is therefore seen as taking advantage of her state by a man, even if she agreed/consented while under the influence.

That is, alcohol or drugs reduce her agency and control over access to sex with her. This indicates women control access to sex; her impairment then shifts responsibility to the man, even if he is impaired at the same level or more.
 
I believe in the premise that coercive sex amounts to rape in some cases. I am questioning what constitutes coercive sex as defined in the study.
Correct, but given how it is defined by the study, there is no reason to doubt the data in regards to said definition
 
yes, but if a guy and girl have the same number of drinks; and both agree / consent to sex; she can change her mind and claim she didn't really consent due to alcohol; the guy doesn't have the same choice, and can't claim he was drunk.
Now THAT my friend is an outlier.
 
Now THAT my friend is an outlier.
didn't say it was frequent; I used it as an example for accountability for control of access to sex; I said it indicates that society places more responsibility on women for control of access to sexual intercourse; if she's under the influence and he's under the influence by similar amounts, he is held accountable (full agency) and she isn't (impaired agency).

Again access to sex relies on her agency to control access; being under the influence of drugs or alcohol is seen by society and the law as loss of her agency and control.

In our own western history, it wasn't long ago that women were held accountable for having sex outside of marriage; not to mention pregnancies outside of marriage. Many cultures today still hold women accountable for sex and pregnancy outside of marriage.

I'm sure there's a corollary between the lack of any social stigma / accountability for single-mothers and the growing number of single-women pregnancies.
 
didn't say it was frequent; I used it as an example for accountability for control of access to sex; I said it indicates that society places more responsibility on women for control of access to sexual intercourse; if she's under the influence and he's under the influence by similar amounts, he is held accountable (full agency) and she isn't (impaired agency).

men can make the same case though. Rape goes both ways. Since you like statistics, around 3% of men have reported to have been raped. Thats like 1 in 30, so you probably know one. Plus over 3/4 of reported cases stated the female as the perpetrator. Given societal standards, I reckon most incidences do not even go reported.
 
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