Does shitty tone tend to bury good tone?

[SpiderWars]

I've recently played with several other guitar players for the first time. When it's just me/bass/drums I think it sounds pretty good. But then the other guy comes in with his rig and it either turns to mud from way too much low end or a ton of delay/modulation or just muddy/ratty distortion. Now I'm buried and it sounds like a wall of muddy guitar. A volume war could ensue but I refuse to participate in that, I'll even turn down hoping he gets the hint.

There is the other issue with guys not leaving enough musical space for others to operate (read: could you turn the fuck down a bit while someone else is singing or soloing?). But I'm more interested in just the tonal side. Is it not unusual for shitty tone to bury good tone? Maybe I'm the one with shitty tone...but if I can't out-tone a Cyber Twin I'm fucked anyway.

 

[neilli]

What works for one guitar isn't the same as what works for two, just like what works at home isn't what works with a band. Two heavily distorted guitars laden with effects are just going to be muddy, so I'd suggest starting off with no effects at all and then add them sparingly. Likewise, too much low end even on one guitar will get swallowed by the bass, and it seems you've already experienced the result of two bottom heavy guitars..

I was using a Mesa Roadster in my last band, and the other guy had a Line 6 of some type. And yeah, the line6 really was 'that bad'! But the overall mix actually sounded decent because I had a more 'full' sound and his sounded like someone throwing razorblades at you, so the blend actually worked surprisingly well. Didn't stop me hating Line6 forever though LOL

 

[CrazyNutz]

I've been in this situation several times. I'm always upfront about it, I usually start with "hey guys let set our volumes". Let the bass and drummer play, assist (use hand signals) the bass player in adjusting his volume. Then adjust your volume while the bass and drummer plays. Now assist the other guitarist in setting his volume while you all play.

This way you are less likely to start a conflict because he wont feel singled out.

 

[maddnotez]

I've been in this situation several times. I'm always upfront about it, I usually start with "hey guys let set our volumes". Let the bass and drummer play, assist (use hand signals) the bass player in adjusting his volume. Then adjust your volume while the bass and drummer plays. Now assist the other guitarist in setting his volume while you all play.

This way you are less likely to start a conflict because he wont feel singled out.

This.

If it is just a tryout then I wouldn't worry about it but if it is another guitarist that will be or is in the band you HAVE TO discuss the problem.

It is not just you trust me. I have a Rev 2 Uber and have had a VHT Pitbull and same thing as you. When it was just me and the drummer it sounded amazing, when the other guy showed up it turned to crap.

He ended up getting a 6505+ and it is sounding MUCH better now. I have also learned that sometimes amps just do not pair well with others. It really sucks too when you have a killer tone, have expensive gear and it sounds like shit at no fault of your own.

Turn the volumes down. If you are still getting drowned out at equal volumes then turn your mids up. Both of you may need to adjust your EQ's to get it sounding good. It is worth the time and effort it takes to get a good sound IMO.

 

[Badronald]

Playing with immature musicians (lack of real live performance experience) is difficult.

Try and work with them and use this as a mentor ship opportunity.

Be careful, musicians are a sensitive bunch.

 

[Racerxrated]

Less is more in a live situation. Always. At home, you can sound like a swirling mass of tonal destruction in the man cave, but when you are at a club or any gig you gotta cut, and dry bright cutting tone ALWAYS wins.

 

[cecilbag]

I fully understand what you're going through. I have really good amps and the other guitarist in our band uses a line 6 flextone 2 head. He has it on full blast pretty much all the time no matter what and also plays through 2-4 marshall cabs at any given time. He uses so much digital reverb and delay that it turns into jumbled crap. He refuses to turn any of it off because that would reveal the core tone which isn't good. Most of the time the sound company just brings him way down and runs a low-pass filter to eliminate all the lowend. That's the only thing we've found that works. I'm always open to try new things with my tone to make it sound best but he's been "playing for 40 years" and refuses to change his "schon tone". Neil would run away from this amp believe me. Oh well, sensitive doesn't even begin to describe this situation. ADD beyond belief is where I would start lol. Great player, terrible tone.

 

[sytharnia1560]

I fully understand what you're going through. I have really good amps and the other guitarist in our band uses a line 6 flextone 2 head. He has it on full blast pretty much all the time no matter what and also plays through 2-4 marshall cabs at any given time. He uses so much digital reverb and delay that it turns into jumbled crap. He refuses to turn any of it off because that would reveal the core tone which isn't good. Most of the time the sound company just brings him way down and runs a low-pass filter to eliminate all the lowend. That's the only thing we've found that works. I'm always open to try new things with my tone to make it sound best but he's been "playing for 40 years" and refuses to change his "schon tone". Neil would run away from this amp believe me. Oh well, sensitive doesn't even begin to describe this situation. ADD beyond belief is where I would start lol. Great player, terrible tone.

Have you ever let him run through you rig so he can hear how much "better" he can sound? I have found that works, on one occasion I let a guy use my rig for 20 minutes...he then spent the next 3 hrs trying to get his rig to sound like mine ... sadly he never got there

 

[sytharnia1560]

I've recently played with several other guitar players for the first time. When it's just me/bass/drums I think it sounds pretty good. But then the other guy comes in with his rig and it either turns to mud from way too much low end or a ton of delay/modulation or just muddy/ratty distortion. Now I'm buried and it sounds like a wall of muddy guitar. A volume war could ensue but I refuse to participate in that, I'll even turn down hoping he gets the hint.

There is the other issue with guys not leaving enough musical space for others to operate (read: could you turn the fuck down a bit while someone else is singing or soloing?). But I'm more interested in just the tonal side. Is it not unusual for shitty tone to bury good tone? Maybe I'm the one with shitty tone...but if I can't out-tone a Cyber Twin I'm fucked anyway.

It really depends on how tone is used. "good" tone when playing alone at home usually isn't great when playing with others, especially if there is another guitarist. As others have said let the drummer (and bassist if there is one) jam and then slowly bring amp levels up to sit just under them. Then tell them to stop playing and let the guitar players tweak things EQ wise so they blend together...lose any reverb you normally use also, once the volume starts going up in a room you really shouldn't need it.

Actually the most important thing is to position the amps right. I find people tend to set up in a circle standing in front of their own amp, this is when volume wars start...try and set up like a live band on stage does or if you don't have the room then put bass cab right on front if the kick drum, and a guitar cabs either side of the bass cab then adjust volume so you cab still hear the drums

 

[cecilbag]

I fully understand what you're going through. I have really good amps and the other guitarist in our band uses a line 6 flextone 2 head. He has it on full blast pretty much all the time no matter what and also plays through 2-4 marshall cabs at any given time. He uses so much digital reverb and delay that it turns into jumbled crap. He refuses to turn any of it off because that would reveal the core tone which isn't good. Most of the time the sound company just brings him way down and runs a low-pass filter to eliminate all the lowend. That's the only thing we've found that works. I'm always open to try new things with my tone to make it sound best but he's been "playing for 40 years" and refuses to change his "schon tone". Neil would run away from this amp believe me. Oh well, sensitive doesn't even begin to describe this situation. ADD beyond belief is where I would start lol. Great player, terrible tone.

Have you ever let him run through you rig so he can hear how much "better" he can sound? I have found that works, on one occasion I let a guy use my rig for 20 minutes...he then spent the next 3 hrs trying to get his rig to sound like mine ... sadly he never got there

I have let him play through my amps many times. He's convinced that his tone is awesome. Sound guys,engineers etc tell him different but he just loves that flextone aka pod with a power amp.

 

[Racerxrated]

^^About 15 yrs ago my DSL was in disrepair(which was on a regular basis) and I bought one of those Flextones as a backup, ended up using it most of the time. It worked because I was the only guitar player. We picked up an old friend and went dual, and he had great vocals too. He fn buried me in the mix with a bassman and pedals. Back in the closet went the Flextone, and in came my first modded Marshall..a Lee Jackson 2204. Much better.

 

[LP Freak]

Problem is, not everyone knows the difference between good and bad tone.

 

[SpiderWars]

Good point about amp placement. In this room I think we should try both standing on the opposite side of the room directly in front of our own amps. He hasn't played thru my rig yet but the drummer did answer his "do I need a new guitar or new amp" question with a quick "amp, something not so muddy" except he somehow said that politely (and they are friends).

 

[errrrrl]

I've been through this and had to clear things up right away. The cure for our band was to come up with or use a part of a song with harmonies and literally loop it/ play over and over til it is balanced in volume and guitars are heard in the mix. We do this now as our initial sound check before we start jamming.

Since i'm the drummer I have everyone point there amps at me and I use hand signals to either turn up or turn down or tell them more mids or too much bass. I guess being blunt and playing with people who are really cool is a plus. I also tell the guitarist to stand in the direction of their own amps which really helps. For me hearing 2 guitars playing a harmony part really makes things clear on balance and tone... Good luck!

 

[sytharnia1560]

I have let him play through my amps many times. He's convinced that his tone is awesome. Sound guys,engineers etc tell him different but he just loves that flextone aka pod with a power amp.

shit ... then he just needs a punch in the cock

 

[K-Roll]

it's a weird thing indeed with tone .
In our band, I've always liked the other guitarist's tone better, but each time we play live people come back to me telling - you sounded better on the mic from the PA, better clarity, more punch and fitting the overall mix. Which is funny cause the other guy uses a lot more volume and lowend so you'd almost think i should be drowned in the mix.


So there's always a couple things we always have to keep in mind:
- the 'low end' that you perceive is usually direct movement of air, which the mic does not capture and if you overdo that, it's gonna flub out up front
- dryer sounds that cut through will sound better through a good PA which will add extra body to the mic-ed tone
- in a 2 band scenario, both players should aim for sounds that equally cut through even on moderate volumes - for instance, I can tell that our drummer hits the kit really hard, but because we're EQ-ed correctly we seldom work with volume, but with tone shaping pots instead
-90% is still about how well the song is written, how well your parts are built up and how much space you leave not just sonically but also by not playing as much if that makes any sense
-what works for me does not work for you - musical genre
- guitars are like 20% max of how well the band sounds , it's usually the drums, the vocals and the drum/bass mix that will dictate whether the band sounds huge and punchy

and the golden rule - no one gives a shit about our guitar tone

 

[maddnotez]

I have let him play through my amps many times. He's convinced that his tone is awesome. Sound guys,engineers etc tell him different but he just loves that flextone aka pod with a power amp.

shit ... then he just needs a punch in the cock

Do it.....

Really though, 40 years? That bad of an amp?

I am actually getting mad reading this now..Dude seriously needs to buy a good amp.

 

[shredhead7]

As others have said, someone has to be the band director and hopefully that person has great ears. I've always tried to not step on others toes and have really tweaked my sound so that I have a good 5-10db drop from my lead tone to my rhythm tone. As others have said, with today's amps being geared to sound good at home (read: lots of bass), you really need to carve that out of your sound and make room for the bass player.

 

[cecilbag]

I have let him play through my amps many times. He's convinced that his tone is awesome. Sound guys,engineers etc tell him different but he just loves that flextone aka pod with a power amp.

shit ... then he just needs a punch in the cock

Do it.....

Really though, 40 years? That bad of an amp?

I am actually getting mad reading this now..Dude seriously needs to buy a good amp.

For a point of reference, his old amp prior to the flextone was a crate combo that he ran to the same marshall cabs. It makes him happy so whatever floats his boat but he would do himself a huge favor by just getting anything else. Then at least he could be brought into the pa mix more than just on solos. It's not all the amp, it's a combo of the amount of unnatural bass (he leaves the cab model on even though he's playing through real cabs) and a ton of effects (digital reverb and tons of delay). I pretty much just use an overdrive on solos otherwise I don't use effects. I guess the super dry and heavy wet should work on paper but if that amp is pointed at me it just buries everything, bass drums and guitar. 40 years as a guitarist makes me think for the most part he just can't hear anymore lol. Other than that he's a good player and nice guy so we just deal with it.

 

[sytharnia1560]

It's not all the amp, it's a combo of the amount of unnatural bass (he leaves the cab model on even though he's playing through real cabs) and a ton of effects (digital reverb and tons of delay). I pretty much just use an overdrive on solos otherwise I don't use effects. I guess the super dry and heavy wet should work on paper but if that amp is pointed at me it just buries everything, bass drums and guitar. 40 years as a guitarist makes me think for the most part he just can't hear anymore lol. Other than that he's a good player and nice guy so we just deal with it.

I had similar problems with a guy that was in my band years ago. He had one of the first line 6 amps (talking 1993ish here) and man it just sounded like a muffled muddy mess drowning in effects. We use to practice in a warehouse....so you did not need any reverb on your amp because the big room did it all. I was running a marshall silver jubilee at the time and even cranked it struggled to be heard over his appalling tone........I "let him go" after a few weeks