Fender to Marshall to Bogner connection

[C1-ocaster]

I was wondering about the tonal connection between Fender, Marshall, and Bogner.
From what I understand, and I could be wrong, Marshall started by modding the Fender Bassman.
Then, late 70's or so Bogner started modding Marshall JCM800's and a legend was born.

The reason I ask is because I've always loved Fender's clean tones.
The other day I found a Fender FSR Hot Rod Deluxe III in a cool dark red and wheat grill.
It sounded great so I bought it.
Past couple of days I've been playing with it and man it's got some great clean and bluesy tones.
Then I plugged in my Bogner Red pedal and man what a sweet tone.
The Red has a lot of tonal variety. Plugged in the Wampler Triple Wreck and it too sounds fantastic.
It's got a slightly darker and thicker overdrive.
To my ears these pedals into the Fender's clean channel is harmonically richer and more articulate the going into my
Vengeance's clean channel, which is darn nice too, but the Fender beats it.

This got me to thinking if one of the Bogner amps may be what I need to get.
I don't need big watts as I mostly play at home and occasionally at my buddies home studio in a band setting.
The 40 watts of this Fender would be plenty loud into my 2x12 or 4x12 cabs.

The Hot Rod's distortion/high gain actually sucks. It's thin and not very pleasing.
But not matter it's the clean I'm after and the pedals give me the high gain.
Am I on the right track thinking a lower wattage Bogner would be better, or should I stick with the Fender?
I found a clearance Fender Deluxe Reverb 2x12 for a great price, and a Bogner Barcelona 1x12.
Or some other Bogner? I'd probably love a 101b, but I don't want to spend near $2K as I'm not a gigging musician.
Maybe the Goldfinger cause I find I prefer the tone from 6L6 power tubes.

Suggestions, opinions, advice wanted.

BTW, I've never played a Bogner amp of any kind.

 

[lespaul6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogner_Amplification

 

[C1-ocaster]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogner_Amplification

Thanks for the history link.

But I'm looking for player comments and experiences of the tone's with Bogner amps.
And if someone can compare a Fender to Bogner even better.

 

[Dale B]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogner_Amplification

Thanks for the history link.

But I'm looking for player comments and experiences of the tone's with Bogner amps.
And if someone can compare a Fender to Bogner even better.

There really is no comparison between those two products. The Shiva will give you the best cleans from Bogner. The dirty channel is like a Marshall that has been Bogner-ized. It isn't quite as thick as the Classic or 101B that I own. I'm not talking about the 20th Anniversary version either.

The best description for Bogner's dirty tones was given to me by none other than our own Bob Savage over 10 years ago when we were chatting over AIM. His description was something to the effect of it being about the best recorded Marshall tone you could imagine. Of course, Bob was heavily into recording guitars at the time, and I knew absolutely nothing about that entire other world. Fast-forward to now, I know what he was talking about when we were having that conversation.

I've played the old Shiva with reverb countless times, owned an Uberschall Rev2 several times, owned about five 101b heads and still own a 101b and XTC Classic. I'm not extremely familiar with his other amps. If I had to guess, I would put money on them being smoother, full-sounding incarnations of some other type of design, as Mr. Bogner doesn't like bright amps.

If you're happy with the Fender and using pedals for your dirty, stick with it. You will save yourself a ton of money.

This is my opinion, but the best clean tone I've ever heard or had was from a Suhr Custom Audio OD100. Fender Twins are beautiful sounding to me as well. The Hot Rod has a very good clean tone and can take pedals very well.

If you want an amp that does Fender type cleans and Marshall type dirty stuff, there are a bunch out there that do just that. The Custom Audio Amps do it extremely well, but they're expensive. The Shiva does it extremely well, and you can find one of those in a combo with 6L6s and reverb for about 1500ish. The 101b's clean channel is pretty much the same preamp from a Fender Deluxe or Super Reverb, but you have to know how to set it in order to get that tone out of it.

I hope others chime in with their thoughts and suggestions. I haven't paid much attention to a lot of the newer stuff that has been released over the last 5 or so years.

https://www.grangeramp.com/cg50.php < This amp might tickle your fancy as well.

Good luck!

 

[Badronald]

The Bogner Red is killer. The Fender cleans are stellar as well.

Just keep what you have. You have legitimate tones already. Or.......you can go down the road of chasing tones.

 

[yngzaklynch]

Bogner Goldfinger

 

[TX6Strings]

Jim Marshall did base his amps off the Fender Bassman with a few tweaks of his own and yes Bogner did used mod Marshall's before starting his own line, but as Badronald said. If you're happy with what you have stick with it. Bogner amps do generally have nice cleans and the red pedal is based off the Red channel on the XTC, but you'll never get a true Marshall sound out of a Bogner.

 

[gibson08]

The reason I ask is because I've always loved Fender's clean tones.
The other day I found a Fender FSR Hot Rod Deluxe III in a cool dark red and wheat grill.
It sounded great so I bought it.
Past couple of days I've been playing with it and man it's got some great clean and bluesy tones.
Then I plugged in my Bogner Red pedal and man what a sweet tone.
The Red has a lot of tonal variety. Plugged in the Wampler Triple Wreck and it too sounds fantastic.
It's got a slightly darker and thicker overdrive.
To my ears these pedals into the Fender's clean channel is harmonically richer and more articulate the going into my
Vengeance's clean channel, which is darn nice too, but the Fender beats it.

This got me to thinking if one of the Bogner amps may be what I need to get.

OK, This has to be some sort of Rig Talk logic here I have been a victim of it before,, Fender tone comes from,,,

wait for it,,,


Fender

 

[dfrattaroli]

From what I understand, and I could be wrong, Marshall started by modding the Fender Bassman.
Then, late 70's or so Bogner started modding Marshall JCM800's and a legend was born.

Well, many would say, 2 legends were already born before Bogner.

 

[Anonymous]

A couple of observations

- From what I understand, Bogner started by modding Fender Showman
- Having played cranked vintage Fender and Marshall amps, the Bogner XTC blue sounds like a cross between the two, that's why it's such a unique sound
- I've played tons of high/medium gain amps that claim they have great cleans, including the Shiva (no Suhr or CAA though) Wizard and Rivera; none of them come close to vintage Fender cleans, not even close
- The Hot Rod Deluxe is a fine amp, but to me, it's not what a classic Fender should sound like. You'll get even better cleans on a vintage model or reissue
- Speaking of reissues, you'd be way better off finding an original 60's or 70's handwired Fender. Modern Fender build quality is questionable. A nice vintage Silverface Fender won't be too expensive, you can easily have it "blackfaced" by a good tech too

 

[C1-ocaster]

Great info guys, thanks!

I am really quite impressed with the HR DLXIII. The clean tones are very nice and yes, it takes pedals like a baby to a teet.
The idea of getting a Bogner is from the "chasing/finding tone" trap.
Just wondering if a good clean Bogner would do that Fender clean better.
But as some of you say, if you want a Fender tone, then get a Fender.

I'll stop looking for a Bogner for now, and wait until I get a chance to actually play one.
Meanwhile I have line on a Fender DLX Reverb reissue.
Its' 22 watts 1x12. It may be better suited for me and for home volume.
The Hot Rod DLX is very touchy to get a lower volume as I have to get it between 1 and 2 and it jumps in volume very quickly.
I'm thinking a 22 watt would be better. I've played a SuperSonic 22 a number of times and I really like that amp, and getting a great low volume tone is easy.
According to Fender the DLX Reverb is basis for the SuperSonic. Youtube video's show them to be pretty close on the clean channel.
I'm sure I'd like either one.

The distortion channel on the DLX isn't great, but that's ok.
I did swap in some different pre's today and the distortion channel sounds better now.
I put in Jan Phillips 5751's in V1 and V2 and a Mullard 12ax7 for the PI.
Overall sound improvement. The 5751's are really musical. The one's I have aren't the lower than 12ax7 type, they are just a tad lower if not the same gain as a 12ax7.

I've got to do some comparo recordings to let you guys hear how I set it.
Thanks again for the insights, they are useful.

 

[Anonymous]

The Deluxe Reverb is a nice amp
It's not super clean, so you can crank it and get that nice Fender crunch
It's also easy to swap out the 12" speaker to experiment with tones

The reissue though, disappointed me
Built cheaply... the vibrato on mine sounded like a friggin police helicopter was trying to land in my yard. I had to open it up and fix it. The amp was in pristine condition too, not abused or anything. Many have reported this problem, which would be an easy fix for Fender.
As said before, try to find a vintage one

 

[rcm78]

I have a 101b Classic that I gig with regularly. My practice rig is a HR Deville with a RED and BLUE. I also use the same RED and Blue into a '66 Fender Bandmaster at a local rehearsal studio. To me there really is no comparison. Fenders have a rich ambient full clean tone and I can not get the same clean tone out of my XTC. Everything I've read says the 101b has a fender circuit for the green channel. If it does then the core difference must be the tubes. The 101b has EL34's and I believe the green channel suffers because of them.

 

[Anonymous]

I have a 101b Classic that I gig with regularly. My practice rig is a HR Deville with a RED and BLUE. I also use the same RED and Blue into a '66 Fender Bandmaster at a local rehearsal studio. To me there really is no comparison. Fenders have a rich ambient full clean tone and I can not get the same clean tone out of my XTC. Everything I've read says the 101b has a fender circuit for the green channel. If it does then the core difference must be the tubes. The 101b has EL34's and I believe the green channel suffers because of them.

Many amps claim to have Fender clean circuits
But their power section (and other components) is set up to accommodate a medium/high gain channel
You can't have the best of both world, you can come close, but it'll never be the same

 

[Dale B]

I have a 101b Classic that I gig with regularly. My practice rig is a HR Deville with a RED and BLUE. I also use the same RED and Blue into a '66 Fender Bandmaster at a local rehearsal studio. To me there really is no comparison. Fenders have a rich ambient full clean tone and I can not get the same clean tone out of my XTC. Everything I've read says the 101b has a fender circuit for the green channel. If it does then the core difference must be the tubes. The 101b has EL34's and I believe the green channel suffers because of them.

This is from memory, but all you have to do is this:

Put the mids at 10:00. I think the bright switch is set to B1. Dime the gain, and use the overall volume for volume. Of course, the power section isn't a Fender's, as it's a Plexi type in regard to filtering with EL34's. The OT is based off of a 2668 Dagnal.

The Classic's clean isn't a Fender-based preamp. It's a different animal altogether.

 

[Anonymous]

I have a 101b Classic that I gig with regularly. My practice rig is a HR Deville with a RED and BLUE. I also use the same RED and Blue into a '66 Fender Bandmaster at a local rehearsal studio. To me there really is no comparison. Fenders have a rich ambient full clean tone and I can not get the same clean tone out of my XTC. Everything I've read says the 101b has a fender circuit for the green channel. If it does then the core difference must be the tubes. The 101b has EL34's and I believe the green channel suffers because of them.

This is from memory, but all you have to do is this:

Put the mids at 10:00. I think the bright switch is set to B1. Dime the gain, and use the overall volume for volume. Of course, the power section isn't a Fender's, as it's a Plexi type in regard to filtering with EL34's. The OT is based off of a 2668 Dagnal.

The Classic's clean isn't a Fender-based preamp. It's a different animal altogether.

Yeah B1 on the bright switch, Presence turned all the way down, Volume turned all the way up and Gain used as a Master volume. Pretty good clean sound, but still not a Fender

 

[Dale B]

I have a 101b Classic that I gig with regularly. My practice rig is a HR Deville with a RED and BLUE. I also use the same RED and Blue into a '66 Fender Bandmaster at a local rehearsal studio. To me there really is no comparison. Fenders have a rich ambient full clean tone and I can not get the same clean tone out of my XTC. Everything I've read says the 101b has a fender circuit for the green channel. If it does then the core difference must be the tubes. The 101b has EL34's and I believe the green channel suffers because of them.

This is from memory, but all you have to do is this:

Put the mids at 10:00. I think the bright switch is set to B1. Dime the gain, and use the overall volume for volume. Of course, the power section isn't a Fender's, as it's a Plexi type in regard to filtering with EL34's. The OT is based off of a 2668 Dagnal.

The Classic's clean isn't a Fender-based preamp. It's a different animal altogether.

Yeah B1 on the bright switch, Presence turned all the way down, Volume turned all the way up and Gain used as a Master volume. Pretty good clean sound, but still not a Fender

LOL...I just woke up, and I'm getting ready to go to work. Yeah, it's pretty good, but it isn't a Fender and never will be one because of the power section.

 

[glassjaw7]

The gain sounds/feel are not even remotely close, at all...in ANY way. Some of the Bogs can sort of do a Fender style clean (being based on a Fender circuit) but that's the end of it.

 

[yngzaklynch]

Try a Goldfinger 45 and get back to me

 

[rcm78]

I have a 101b Classic that I gig with regularly. My practice rig is a HR Deville with a RED and BLUE. I also use the same RED and Blue into a '66 Fender Bandmaster at a local rehearsal studio. To me there really is no comparison. Fenders have a rich ambient full clean tone and I can not get the same clean tone out of my XTC. Everything I've read says the 101b has a fender circuit for the green channel. If it does then the core difference must be the tubes. The 101b has EL34's and I believe the green channel suffers because of them.

This is from memory, but all you have to do is this:

Put the mids at 10:00. I think the bright switch is set to B1. Dime the gain, and use the overall volume for volume. Of course, the power section isn't a Fender's, as it's a Plexi type in regard to filtering with EL34's. The OT is based off of a 2668 Dagnal.

The Classic's clean isn't a Fender-based preamp. It's a different animal altogether.

Yeah, I found that post on the bogner forum when I bought the amp. Keep in mind mine is a classic and it doesn't have dual presence controls. The Classic has one global presence control and I have it at 3:00. If I turn it down the Blue and Red channels suffer. I can get a very good clean sound out of the amp it's just not a true fender tone...