Friedman Smallbox vs Bogner Helios

[BrentSP]

What do you guys think? I own the Helios and my 30 day return ends August 8th so I still have time. I really like the Helios a lot, 70's hot with the gain around 3:00 on B2 is where its at for me but switching over to the "clean" channel while I'm still in the hot input is just too hot to be clean. Plexi input is nice but then I miss the high gain. You really have to think of this amp as a one channel amp like a plexi or 2203 because I really don't find it functional if you need a true clean and high gain from the amp only. Plexi input can get you what you need with a OD out in front but hell might as well go with a real Marshall then. But I do love the amp and love that I can knock the power/voltage down also.

I've played the SB and DS at guitar center and was impressed.

 

[memberzonly]

Both are awesome but for different reasons.

FWIW, I have had recently 2 Smallboxes, a Helios 50, Helios 100 and BE100. I currently have the Helios 50 and will likely get another SB.

The Helios 50 is more raw than the SB. But the SB *feels* better to me to play. Different compression on the BE channel. I like both amps. And I like the SB much more than the BE100. The voicing on the SB is nicer for me.

I prefer the transition in channels with the SB. I think that with the gain rolled up on the SB, you seem to get better cleans when rolling down the volume (compared to the Helios hot input). I can get something similar to the Helios 50 by replacing V1 with a Mullard. You lose a bit of hair on the Hot channel but not too much.

Not much help, I suppose. Lol

 

[BrentSP]

No you did help, thank you. I just think about how much I've paid for it and what it does. Its a really nice one channel amp with lots of voicing features that non are footswitchable. The SB I'm sure I could use live but will I miss the Helios. I really need both lol

 

[memberzonly]

I just did a gig Saturday with the Helios. Everything from funk to Ozzy. It held it's own. I didn't use any gain boosts but could have used a bit more hair hear and there. The clean was good enough. Neck/middle single coils on a Tyler strat with low output pups. Did the same thing 2 weeks ago with the SB.

Similar result.

 

[BrentSP]

I just did a gig Saturday with the Helios. Everything from funk to Ozzy. It held it's own. I didn't use any gain boosts but could have used a bit more hair hear and there. The clean was good enough. Neck/middle single coils on a Tyler strat with low output pups. Did the same thing 2 weeks ago with the SB.

Similar result.

Clean on the hot input?

 

[memberzonly]

I just did a gig Saturday with the Helios. Everything from funk to Ozzy. It held it's own. I didn't use any gain boosts but could have used a bit more hair hear and there. The clean was good enough. Neck/middle single coils on a Tyler strat with low output pups. Did the same thing 2 weeks ago with the SB.

Similar result.

Clean on the hot input?

Yup. The volume wasn't wound up. The combo of not using the reduced power setting, lower output single coils and a nice NOS preamp tube in V1 (the Hot channel tube) seems to work ok. Not a Fender clean but workable. With hums, you'd get too much hair.

 

[journeyman73]

No you did help, thank you. I just think about how much I've paid for it and what it does. Its a really nice one channel amp with lots of voicing features that non are footswitchable. The SB I'm sure I could use live but will I miss the Helios. I really need both lol

I'm about a week into my Helios ownership - so, i still have a lot of time to spend with it.

I'm starting to be of two minds with it - in some ways, its directly in MY sweetspot for the main tone i think i like (i.e. a plexi-based sound that is out of control but still has the ability to have some bottom and more gain).

I find the Helios to be literally packed with tones though, ironically, i don't like its plexi sounds very much (i honestly find the plexi input pretty useless to me, id rather just plug into a Germion or my SL68) - but basically anything in the Hot input is money for me.

What is really starting to annoy me is exactly what you said - its basically a one channel amp, just like a plexi. Its not as easy to change on the amp as flipping some switches either, as i find depeding on the switches i flip i need to re-eq the amp to sound the best, and the gain levels, and the volume levels, sometimes the resonance, etc. don't get me wrong, its awesome to have that tonal control and tweakability, I'm just not sure how i feel about actually using it and sacrificing some of the basic on the fly stuff.

the clean in Hot is basically useless to me...i wish it had a foot switchable boost...feedback knob like on the PT100 would have been really nice too....stuff like that.

BUT its tone is undeniable and so killer that it's really tough to think about returning it because of some of these limitations...

full disclosure - I've got a bunch of other amps, including several freedman (but not the SB) and they are all very different than the Helios. I would imagine the SB is a little closer to the basic tones of the Helios but if its got any of the trademark Friedman DNA its still going to be pretty different than the Helios

 

[BrentSP]

what about the punch switch? I hear no difference when the bottom is cranked or lowered and flipped on/off/on/off. I had my daughter flip the switch for me while I played and nothing. Is it subtle and at a frequency that I can't hear from all the gigging?

 

[journeyman73]

what about the punch switch? I hear no difference when the bottom is cranked or lowered and flipped on/off/on/off. I had my daughter flip the switch for me while I played and nothing. Is it subtle and at a frequency that I can't hear from all the gigging?

funny you mention this - i haven't been able to sense it doing anything either...but i run the bottom knob pretty low and didn't know if that had to be cranked for the switch to impact anything but sounds like you tried it

 

[memberzonly]

what about the punch switch? I hear no difference when the bottom is cranked or lowered and flipped on/off/on/off. I had my daughter flip the switch for me while I played and nothing. Is it subtle and at a frequency that I can't hear from all the gigging?

I can hear it for sure. When I run the Bottom control more that 11:00. Adds some girth to the signal. Not sure I prefer it though.

 

[BrentSP]

what about the punch switch? I hear no difference when the bottom is cranked or lowered and flipped on/off/on/off. I had my daughter flip the switch for me while I played and nothing. Is it subtle and at a frequency that I can't hear from all the gigging?

I can hear it for sure. When I run the Bottom control more that 11:00. Adds some girth to the signal. Not sure I prefer it though.

Hmmmm even at low volumes? The bottom I can definitely hear a different but not the punch switch.

 

[flimz]

What I like about my Smallbox is the simplicity. Both channels sound fantastic at any gain/volume setting. You want nice plexi cleans, its there. You want broken up low gain, its there. You want a nice modded marshall high gain channel, its there. And the best part is that they blend so well together. Thats it...no BS.
Oh, and dime the plexi channel and hit it with a boost =

I havent had the pleasure of playing the Helios, but I do LOVE Bogner amps.

As a side note, Ive noticed many of the friedman videos have the bass dimed on all of their amps. I havent felt the need to do this. The smallbox with some volume behind it sounds plenty full. I usually run the bass around 6 or 7. Having said that, diming the bass it still remains tight.

 

[zewango]

I own a Smallbox its a great amp, I swapped with a friends Helios for a week. Was more than happy when the Smallbox came back home.

 

[BrentSP]

I own a Smallbox its a great amp, I swapped with a friends Helios for a week. Was more than happy when the Smallbox came back home.

That's cool that you were able to have someone to swap with. From the clips the Smallbox seems to have the smoothness of the XTC and the growl of a Marshall. When I played one it wasn't with my guitar and was through a Marshall cab with 75s. Not ideal. But still sounded good.

 

[jcm800x4]

I've had both. Sold the small box and been gigging with the Helios for almost a year now.

 

[yngzaklynch]

Which has the best saturated lead feel? Which is easiest to get pinch harmonics?

 

[xXDaveyJonesXx]

Which is easiest to get pinch harmonics?

Getting right down to brass tacks

 

[memberzonly]

Which has the best saturated lead feel? Which is easiest to get pinch harmonics?

Nod to the SB on both accounts. Def more compression. The SB has more squish. The Helios more kerrang. But both are more lower mid focused than a true Plexi (comparing the BE channel to the Hot input 70's).

I only use low output pickups. Under that scenario, the SB wins on pinch harmonics. But I don't tend to run my mids much past noon where the pinch harmonics live, IMHO. Lemme play with the mids/pres control on the Helios and check back.

 

[jcm800x4]

Agree the small box has a more saturated feel. Disagree on the pinch harmonics. Pinch harmonics are a breeze on both. With a little technique....pretty easy on any distorted amp.

 

[Kidkramer71]

I have not played a sb , but getting killer 70's, 80's rock , hard rock , metal is easy on the Helios !!
Sustain and harmonics are simple .
Nails early Van Halen like no other amp I have played!