HELP: My Next Pedalboard Conundrum

[rlord1974]

Picking up on my last pedalboard threads....

I'm building a new pedalboard. It's going to have some pedals running in series, direct into the amp 'Input', as well as some that are going to be run through the series effects loop. Here is the plan.....

Guitar ---- 15' cable ----> Korg Pitchblack --> Blackout Effectors Musketfuzz --> Xotic BB+ --> Crybaby 535Q --> EH Freeze ----25' cable ----> Amp Input

Amp Effects Send --> Egnater Loop Gadget ---- 25' cable ----> Keeley Phaser (or Strymon Orbit) --> Strymon Brigadier --> Strymon Blue Sky --> Diamond Tremolo ---- 25' cable ----> Egnater Loop Gadget --> Amp Effects Return

So here are the questions I need help with:

1.) In the first signal chain, I believe all pedals are true bypass with the exception of the Crybaby. My understanding is every Crybaby model made after about 1990 has a built in buffer. Is this true? If it IS true, presumably this means I do not need a separate buffer between my guitar and the Amp Input, as the Crybaby's built-in buffer will ensure there is not excessive signal loss?

2.) In the FX loop signal chain, I believe all of the above pedals are true bypass. Given that I am running 25' of cable to and from the pedal board (and the pedals going through the loop), do I need some kind of buffer/boost/line driver in the loop chain to ensure there is not signal loss? If so, any recommendations for a cheap, quality solution?

3.) I believe all Boss stomps have built in buffers that work even when the pedal is disengaged. Is this true? If so, and if the answer to (2.) is that I DO need a buffer/boost/line driver in the loop chain, should I just dump the Keeley Phaser/Strymon Orbit and stick a Boss Phaser or Flanger in the loop instead? Would that be a cheap and quick solution to the problem?

4.) What's the consensus on mod pedals such as phasers and flangers? Do you prefer them between the guitar and Amp Input (i.e., pre-preamp gain), or are they better run through a series loop (i.e., post preamp gain)? I have run them both ways in the past, but would be interested in your thoughts.

5.) Finally.......you can see I currently am planning on putting the Tremolo pedal last in the FX loop signal chain. My rationale here is two-fold: (i.) I believe most classic and boutique amps with built-in tremolo put the tremolo post-reverb in the circuit, so my proposed ordering of the pedals 'mimics' the circuit structure in these amps; and (ii.) my hypothesis is that the tremolo effect would be more pronounced if it was after the reverb. This way, the reverb is actually caught in the tremolo effect (i.e., volume fluctuations), as opposed to the tremolo's volume fluctuations being subject to the reverb (if I were to put the reverb pedal last in the signal chain). What are people's opinions on this ordering of the pedals.

I know some people will think it's odd I plan to run the Musketfuzz and Xotic BB+ prior to the Crybaby, but I actually prefer it that way. I like the sounds the wah throws off when the OD/fuzz comes first.

Thanks all!

 

[steve_k]

Rob,

-Is the FX loop switchable in/out or always engaged when plugged into?
-Any return control on the loop?

 

[rlord1974]

Rob,

-Is the FX loop switchable in/out or always engaged when plugged into?
-Any return control on the loop?

Great questions Steve.

For the time being, I am going to be using this pedalboard with 2 different amps (at different times, not run together in stereo or A/B'd An Egnater MOD50 and the Cameron CCV.

The Egnater's loop is always active. I believe the CCV's can be switched in or out, but I really don't know for sure as I haven't received it yet.

The Egnater has no return control and again, I don't know about the CCV. However, I will be running an Egnater Loop Gadget in the loop, which has both a Send and Return control in it. If you are not familiar with the product, it basically allows you to drop a line level loop to instrument level so you can use pedals through the loop, but then boost the signal back up to line level when it is fed back into the Loop Return.

 

[rokker]

I will offer my $.02....even though i do not use pedals nearly as much as i used to.

1. The 535q is one of the few dunlops that dont suck tone so i think you are ok there...i swear some dunlops will absolutely destroy your tone completely...i have onwed a 535q with no issues.

2.i would look at the tone freak buff puff which is around $160. Majik box has a cheaper buffer..with that much cable and pedals..you should probably get a buffer IMO.

3. I have never been the biggest fan of boss pedals so i do not know about this one...i think they have buffers as you have indicated.

4. Sure there are lots of opininions on phasers and flangers...i would put the phaser in the guitar chain and he flanger in he loop...try it both ways...if you get noise the put it in the loop.

5. Again there are no hard and fast rules vut i have heard from pedalboard designers like freidman to put reverb last. I have never uses a tremelo pedal.

I would offer this too...start with the bb and add one pedal at a time...that way if you get any noise or aignal loss you will know where it is coming from hopefully.

Also. Even though some pedals may have buffers...they may not e good sounding buffers...that is why you may need a good one. Prymaxe vintage or pro guitar shop should have a good selection.

You also may want to look at high qualty cables..something like mogami...in big boards cables make a big difference and can mean the difference between noise or no noise. Hope that helps.

 

[mrkmas]

The crybaby wah's are known for killing tone with certain pedals ( I think fuzz). I would unplug the wah, and connect the BB+ to the freeze to see what the effect the wah is having on your tone. I personally have never had a problems with crybaby wahs causing this problem though. The reason I say this is you may find the crybaby buffer undesirable when you can actually can hear the before and ofter.

I personally am not too big of a fan of boss pedals, however not to say preference does play a part. A great line driver I have used was the MXR/CAE MC-401. I would personally rather throw that on the board then use a boss pedal and its buffer ( which you are correct they all do as far as I know) unless it was setup in a switching system.

I prefer flanger in the loop, but the phaser can go either way. A phaser (im thinking of a phase 90) always sounded best for me in the effects loop, but again, just preference.

The tremelo ordering you mention makes perfect sense to me. I did look at an Ampeg b12xt scehmatic ( an amp that I have) and the tremelo appears to run before the echo. Not sure if echo follows teh same rules as Reverb, and also not sure if the ampeg is an exception to what you mentioned.

Either way honestly it will rock,
Hope that helped.

 

[steve_k]

Rob,

-Is the FX loop switchable in/out or always engaged when plugged into?
-Any return control on the loop?

Great questions Steve.

For the time being, I am going to be using this pedalboard with 2 different amps (at different times, not run together in stereo or A/B'd An Egnater MOD50 and the Cameron CCV.

The Egnater's loop is always active. I believe the CCV's can be switched in or out, but I really don't know for sure as I haven't received it yet.

The Egnater has no return control and again, I don't know about the CCV. However, I will be running an Egnater Loop Gadget in the loop, which has both a Send and Return control in it. If you are not familiar with the product, it basically allows you to drop a line level loop to instrument level so you can use pedals through the loop, but then boost the signal back up to line level when it is fed back into the Loop Return.

OK, sounds like you have the problem dicked then with the Egnater Gadget. What I was driving at was volume loss in the loop and how you intended to control that. I find phasers and flangers and trem pedals to be tone and volume sucking machines. For this reason, I used them sparingly and up front instead of a loop. If you are noodling around recording, you can always compensate. For live gigs though, an FX loop is not my friend.

You might want to get something like an MXR Micro boost or a CAE Buffer/Booster or a Tone Freak Buff/Puff and run in that loop signal path if you find and loss to be excessive. It's all experimentation and you should lay your pedals out and try them both ways. There's no real order to the madness, as some pedals will react different. You need to make sure though that the fuzz pedal is not buffered. Wah's, especially Dunlops do not take well with buffers in front of them. You will see what I am talking about in front of something high gain, like the CCV.

Food for thought....

Steve

 

[mrkmas]

+1 on what Steve K said about the flangers, phasers and trem pedals killing tone and volume. An EVH Phase 90 I used to have had a decent volume drop with it if I remember correctly

 

[rlord1974]

Thanks guys! More feedback is still welcome folks!

 

[Ventura]

Loop as much as possible on your board so that the clean signal can always remain intact if possible.

If you're going to have a series out on the board, have it through a fine-ass stomp. In my case, I'm series out via stereo, through my PitchFactor - whether I use the stomp or not, there's NOTHING wrong with how the Eventide's punch out a signal, whether buffered or TB, they're tits.

But had I a shitty little stomp or two at the end, no dice. Loop 'em.

I just finished putting the final plan together for my board. Rooster's squaring away the board and the power needs, I'm doing the wiring. I found that loops were the way to go, and grouped about 13 effects into 4 loops + 1 series stomp out to a Lehle stereo split.

Good luck!! It's fun, and maddening!!!!

Edit:
PLUS...
As per loops of the amps, I have my PitchFactor running stereo out to my Hagen and 20thA-XTC - parallel loops for both amps. A Hardwire RV-7 Reverb unit in the Hagen's serial loop only - don't need it in both amps. As for Phaser and Flanger, I have a Retrosonic Phaser and an MXR M117R 4 button Flanger in the last true loop of my board, before getting sent off to the PF and Lehle. I can engage them or not, pending on the music.

 

[Milerky2]

use a TU-3 instead of a pitchblack to add a buffer up front.

 

[Shark Diver]

I would use a switcher mounted on the board and that way you can use any pedal you like and disengage it from the signal chain when not in use. Out of the loop I'd split the signal, use a mixer and switcher. (if the loops are serial, if not no need to split). Racked or on the floor this would be the most flexible and easiest to use with different amps.

 

[mboogman]

I wouldn't worry too much about distance to and from the effects loop. It's technically a line level signal, so shouldn't see any real signal loss at 50' of cable (there and back again, an effects loop's tale )

 

[glassjaw7]

Right on about putting Trem last if you want it to act as a filter for the verb. That's how I would do it, so you can get that real choppy sound if you want.

Boss pedals do have a buffer that affects the signal all the time (on or off). I would try out your intended setup and see if you experience any tone suck with the loop engaged. You may be fine, or you may need to look into a better buffer.

Pedal order is subjective obviously, but I would definitely not put a phaser in the loop or even after other overdrive pedals. It completely takes over the tone and becomes a swirly mess IMO. I much prefer phase before any gain (pedal or amp) so you don't lose the foundation of your sound.
Good luck!

 

[rlord1974]

use a TU-3 instead of a pitchblack to add a buffer up front.

If I truly find there is signal and/or treble loss once I start experimenting around with the pedals, couldn't I remedy this by just inserting one of these between my guitar and the Amp Input:
* T1M Mini Buffer ($39) http://this1smyne.com/shop/mb-mini-buffer/
* SolidGoldFX Buffer ($89) http://proguitarshop.com/store/effects- ... fer-p-2008
* JHS Little Black Buffer ($95) http://proguitarshop.com/store/effects- ... fer-p-3533

Or, some other mini buffer?

I really like the Pitchblack, so would prefer to keep it on my board.

If one of these simple buffers would work, would it be based placed between my guitar and the first pedal, or between the last pedal and the Amp Input?

 

[steve_k]

Rob,

Send all your pedals to Dave Friedman and get a custom pro board made with proper isolation, line and instrument level signal flow, etc.

Steve

 

[rlord1974]

For those that might be interested, I traded emails with Bruce Egnater today and he confirmed that the MOD50's series FX loop is in fact buffered. No need for a buffer/line driver if you're using long cable runs to your pedalboard. Even moreso if you are also using the Egnater Loop Gadget in the loop!