Help with MIDI Please

[FourT6and2]

So I've had a VH4 for a few years. Love it. I've never really used MIDI (I usually only play on Channel 3). But I just picked up a used CCV that came with a 4 button Randall MIDI footswitch. I got it working fine with the CCV to control channel switching and boost. But I can't get it working right with the VH4.

I tried to follow the instructions in the Diezel literature. But didn't work right. The instructions say to tap the store button twice to store. But nothing happens when I do that. If I hold the store button down for a few seconds, the channel select switch blinks. Then if I hit the store button again, I think it stores it. Maybe not...

It seems like the Randall switch has two functions per button. So while it has four switches, each switch has a dual function, so really it's 8 channels. But it has no indicator light to tell you which "channel" it's on per button. So I will call each one "Channel 1a," Channel 1b," and so on.

If I hit footswitch channel 1a button, amp switches to channel 1. If I hit footswitch channel 1b button, amp stays on channel 1.
If I hit footswitch channel 2a button, when I was already on channel 1a, nothing happens. Amp stays on channel 1.
If I hit footswitch channel 2a button, when I was on channel 1b, amp switches to channel 2.
When on channel 2, if I hit footswitch channel 2a or 2b, the amp switches back to channel 1.

It does weird stuff like this for all the channels and footswitch buttons.

What I'd like is for each footswitch button to correspond to its amp channel: 1 to 1, 2 to 2, 3 to 3, and 4 to 4. And if the Randall has a dual function for each button, I'd like that double tap to switch the amp's loop on and off.

So if I switch to channel 2 and hit the channel 2 footswitch button a second time, the loop goes on/off. Is that possible? If not, I'd just like basic channel switching function.

I should also say that at in the past when turning the amp on, all the lights would flash. Peter sent me a new MIDI board because apparently this was a sign of a malfunction. But the new MIDI board that was installed randomly does this sometimes, too.

 

[FourT6and2]

Wait, I think I got it to work. I put the amp in Single Channel mode by holding down the mute switch and hitting a button on the footswitch. Now when I hit a button on the footswitch the corresponding channel activates and there are no "double functions." So if I hit "Channel 2" on the footswitch over and over, the amp stays on channel 2.

So I guess I can't have the loop go on/off with a double press of a footswitch button?

 

[Reiep]

That's not an easy one, without knowing this Randall controller. Is is a programmable unit ? Can you please give the reference ?

First of all I'd check if the MIDI channel is matching on both the controller and the VH4. Once you're sure they both are on the same chennel (like channel 1), try to set up the 1A with channel 1 + loop, then select 1B and store a channel 1 without loop on the VH4. Theoritically, if the Randall sends a different Program Change midi message when selecting 1B, you should be able to have the behaviour you want. Then just continue with the other 6 buttons.

Maybe it's possible also to perform a factory reset of the Randall, if it's a programmable unit.

 

[FourT6and2]

This is the Randall RF4. No longer made as far as I can tell.

I got the controller working for simple channel changes, 1-4. But that's with the amp in Single Channel mode. I don't think the RF4 is programmable. But with the amp in the other MIDI mode it was running (not sure if OMNI, or some other mode), it appeared as though each footswitch button could control two things by pressing the switch twice. I tried what you suggested. But the amp would just switch to whatever channel I last programmed regardless of footswitch button.

So if programmed Channel 2 to footswitch 2a, and Channel 2 + Loop On to footswitch 2b, it would work. But then if I hit footswitch 3b, it would switch back to Channel 2 + Loop On.

 

[i.ak]

If the Randall RF4 is not sending different MIDI Program Change -messages when you are hitting the button 1/2/3/4 first and second time it will not work the way I suppose you wish it would work. Without any modification VH4 only responts to MIDI PC -messages.

In other words you would need to have something like this:
Button 1a = PC 1
Button 1b = PC 2
Button 2a = PC 3
Button 2b = PC 4
...

 

[GtarLover]

So, you are asking about functionality that the stock amps just can't provide.

I LOVE my Diezels! I have had VH4S, Einstein, and still have Herbert and Hagen. The thing is even with the midi capability they have to change channels, they do not have the ability to switch functions.

However, there is a solution now. I installed the Evolution midi chip in both my Herbert and Hagen. The evolution chip makes it possible to switch all the functions of the amp on/off individually. It is AWESOME!

The chip is made by Wilder Amplification. Check the web site for more info. I will just say it's an amazing upgrade to any midi capable Diezel amp! Also, not expensive and easy to install.

Your current switch, the Randall, may not be capable of doing what you want anyway, so you may want to look into other switches that can do what you want to do.

Now that you know what you want to achieve, it's a matter of finding the gear that allows you accomplish your goal. I have been doing this for a while, but with newer technology it is MUCH simpler.

Good luck...

 

[FourT6and2]

So, you are asking about functionality that the stock amps just can't provide.

Huh? No... I'm not.

...they do not have the ability to switch functions.

Sure they do. At least the VH4 does...

However, there is a solution now. I installed the Evolution midi chip in both my Herbert and Hagen. The evolution chip makes it possible to switch all the functions of the amp on/off individually. It is AWESOME!

What functions can't be switched by the VH4 already? Channel change, mute, insert loops, Send 2 loop on/off... they can all be switched via MIDI already, no?

Your current switch, the Randall, may not be capable of doing what you want anyway, so you may want to look into other switches that can do what you want to do.

Basic channel switching is fine for me. It just seemed like the Randall was sending multiple program changes per button. And I wanted to take advantage of that.

 

[GtarLover]

I didn't mean to confuse things.

However, yes, currently the functions can NOT be switched on/off individually. Currently, you can switch stored presets only...channels and any other switch that you set and store. What you can't do is switch say, the loop or mute on/off without switching presets.

That's what the Evolution chip can do for you. I wanted to be able to switch the functions on/off individually without having to switch presets. Of course, if you don't want that, then you can keep what you got. But if you do want that flexibility, the chip gives that to you.

The chip also gives you better internal code, from what I understand. Meaning you won't get mistakes or miscommunication when sending multiple messages via midi.

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck and hope you achieve your goal. Enjoy your VH4!!!

 

[i.ak]

"The chip also gives you better internal code, from what I understand. Meaning you won't get mistakes or miscommunication when sending multiple messages via midi."

In my opinion the above is marketing hype. Never ever have I had any single issue with either of my amps (VH4 from 2005 and Herbert from 2007) and I have pretty complex MIDI-chain including altogether 8 units in it. More likely this kind of issues will occur if you have some crap before your amp in the chain or bad cabling.

But GtarLover is correct, Diezels cannot be controlled via MIDI CC without the change of that stock MIDI-chip. For me controlling everything with PC-commands is perfectly fine though as in my usage and setup the ability of toggling e.g. loop on and off would not make any difference whether it is done via CCs or PCs as my setup is more "preset based" nevertheless and there is enough controller buttons to assign.

 

[FourT6and2]

So with the VH4, what can be controlled with that new chip that can't already be controlled via MIDI?

 

[cardinal]

The new chip just allows CC commands (for example, you can have a switch that always allows you to toggle the Parallel Loop on/off, irrespective of what program you're in. With the stock chip, you have to have separate programs for every combination that you'd want).

CC control sounds nice, but in the end, I usually want to switch multiple things at once, so just having separate programs requires less tap dancing.

 

[GtarLover]

I have ben enjoying his conversation and I appreciate everyone's input. We are all trying to get the most out of our amps and set-ups. It is great sharing ideas and possible solutions.

"The chip also gives you better internal code, from what I understand. Meaning you won't get mistakes or miscommunication when sending multiple messages via midi."

In my opinion the above is marketing hype. Never ever have I had any single issue with either of my amps (VH4 from 2005 and Herbert from 2007) and I have pretty complex MIDI-chain including altogether 8 units in it. More likely this kind of issues will occur if you have some crap before your amp in the chain or bad cabling.

I appreciate your situation, yet I was having trouble with missed messages and double taps needed and Peter actually sent me a new chip to help. There was no cable or chain, at that time I was controlling the amp via midi foot controller and one midi cable, no extra effects. I hadn't had any problems in the past either and I have 2 heads now and have owned 4 Diezel heads total.

Anyway, this isn't the point. The point is if you want to have IA control of functions like loop, mute, etc on your amp, this chip swap will get you there.

If you don't need that, then no big deal. Honestly, I love the chip because I can switch the mid-cut control on my Herbert on/off. That is THE biggest reason I dig it. I don't have a VH4 right now.

Plus, it is very helpful when setting the loop volume with other effects. You can switch the loop in/out without having to do that manually. MUCH EASIER...

If anyone has a better way to access the individual functions on the amps I would like to hear about it. So far, the Evolution chip is the best thing out there as far as I have seen.

 

[SinDes1]

"The chip also gives you better internal code, from what I understand. Meaning you won't get mistakes or miscommunication when sending multiple messages via midi."

In my opinion the above is marketing hype.

Allow me provide you with the facts.

The Evolution Series firmware is not modified Diezel code. I did a complete ground up rewrite of their firmware using straight Intel assembly language (they originally wrote theirs in another higher level language...not sure which but I'm thinking Keil C). The code is a bit more condensed and tighter, which allows for quicker processing of MIDI messages to reduce the potential for receive buffer overrun errors as well as reduce the potential for human perceivable switching latency.

Advanced MIDI controllers such as the Voodoo Lab Ground Control Pro, Rocktron All Access, Liquid Foot Pro, and many others have the ability to send out a stream of several control change and program change messages upon selection of a program change button. If your controller is capable of and programmed to do this and Omni mode is selected, what SHOULD happen is that the amp should receive and process the very first program change message in the stream regardless of MIDI channel while ignoring all other messages in the message stream. The stock firmware does not do this. In Omni mode, it attempts to process every message in the stream, which leads to erratic switching and/or the amp to stop responding to MIDI messages altogether until you power cycle the amp.

I addressed this issue in the Evolution Series firmware. Now when sending a stream of messages with the amp in Omni mode, it will only receive and process the very first program change message in the stream while ignoring all else. This prevents the amp from locking up and/or erratically switching.

I went through great lengths in testing/debugging the Evolution code...even going so far as to put it through unrealistic switching scenarios...just to ensure that nobody could get the code to exhibit any bugs in any scenario. Under the correct conditions I could make the stock firmware exhibit some erratic behavior with consistency. Under all of the same testing conditions with the Evolution firmware, I could not.

Peter...with all due respect, I am not trying to spam or step on toes. I just felt the need to set the record straight on this as we do not practice or condone the use of so-called marketing hype. Perhaps assumptions would not be made publicly and opinions could be better informed if people would simply take the time to do their research (I'm only an email away and email is free).

 

[i.ak]

I apologize if someone has been feeling offended due to my comment of "marketing hype". Possibly this is a desired feature that I just am not able to appreciate due to never having any issues. And as stated, this is definitely not the essential point of the chip itself, but instead to add the ability of controlling via CC-messages. I have never analyzed the MIDI-functionality of Diezel chips/firmware in the code-level so I do not have any competence to claim that the Evolution chip would not be better in that sense, but in my usage I have no need to improve the MIDI-message response performance and thus when concidering it from the daily practical usage point-of-view feel very sceptical on this. Especially as I would never recommend anyone to use Omni-mode in multi-device setups. Still, I have no personal experience of this exact chip and definitely have nothing against the added feature of CC-controling so none should understand my poorly selected wording incorrectly. It is much appreciated that someone has the skills and interested to develop all these new improvements and make good even better.

 

[SinDes1]

I apologize if someone has been feeling offended due to my comment of "marketing hype". Possibly this is a desired feature that I just am not able to appreciate due to never having any issues. And as stated, this is definitely not the essential point of the chip itself, but instead to add the ability of controlling via CC-messages. I have never analyzed the MIDI-functionality of Diezel chips/firmware in the code-level so I do not have any competence to claim that the Evolution chip would not be better in that sense, but in my usage I have no need to improve the MIDI-message response performance and thus when concidering it from the daily practical usage point-of-view feel very sceptical on this. Especially as I would never recommend anyone to use Omni-mode in multi-device setups. Still, I have no personal experience of this exact chip and definitely have nothing against the added feature of CC-controling so none should understand my poorly selected wording incorrectly. It is much appreciated that someone has the skills and interested to develop all these new improvements and make good even better.

Apology accepted. Ever since we released the chip, it seems to be getting a host of "assumed negativity" by those who have not even taken the time to research it, much less ever even touched the chip. Not only does this get old, it's also bad publicity, which I feel to be unfair seeing as how our product has done nothing to deserve this kind of assumed negativity. Especially when some of the ones who have been spouting this crap around are the same people who swore that it would be the perfect addition to their amps and that they'd be getting it the day they came out (which is why I took on the task of developing it in the first place...these people have yet to make good on their claims...). After all of the hard work, dedication and sleepless nights I spent on developing this stuff, hopefully you can see where I'm coming from on this.

Here is the link to the thread where it can be seen that people were all for the development of this chip at the time I decided to develop it -

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=32940&hilit=Diezel+CC+Messages

I stand with you on recommending against using Omni mode on multi-device setups. But some who don't have an in depth understanding of MIDI do exactly this. Using the CC numbers as a "channel" (say controller 80 on device 1 might be tap tempo while controller 64 on device 2 might be delay on/off, etc etc) is a common approach to this. Some also use the MIDI mapping facility in rack devices that offer it to control the next device upstream. While this isn't the preferred method of doing things, it is a commonly used approach by the simple minded.

While CC implementation is in fact the primary addition to the Evolution firmware, the improved code and data handling can be considered the "bonus extras" that the chip comes with.