Hey guys, new here... FX loop question, multiple amps

[Gambit]

I am aiming to use three amps at once for my rig, I am leaning towards the VOODOO Labs amp switcher to do just this.

I would like a solution of how to run rack FX through all of the amps FX loops, so if I buy a G major, I want the effect to be running through all the amps FX loops, I dont want to have to buy three of the same unit.

Thanks so much to anyone who can offer some advice!

 

[Code001]

You're most likely going to run into ground loop issues.

 

[jerrydyer]

the best way to do that is the middle amp is dry (or maybe just on board reverb) and the two others are stereo
main amp effects send goes to fx unit (best if loop is parrallel ) so you can still have dry signal on master amp. the effects unit sends a wet left and right to the effects return of the slave amps. big killer huge tones.

 

[Gambit]

Hey I dont totally understand. Are you saying I should use an FX unit that has stereo inputs and use 2 of the amps in stereo and one without any FX? I dont quite understand how to hook up the pieces.

This is all new to me if my question seems redundant!


Any other ideas?

Thank you!

 

[Gambit]

My idea was to use some kind of a mixer, have all the amps FX loops go in and out, and have the mixer go back to the amps returns.

 

[glpg80]

I am aiming to use three amps at once for my rig, I am leaning towards the VOODOO Labs amp switcher to do just this.

I would like a solution of how to run rack FX through all of the amps FX loops, so if I buy a G major, I want the effect to be running through all the amps FX loops, I dont want to have to buy three of the same unit.

Thanks so much to anyone who can offer some advice!

3 amps through 1 cabinet?

correct me if im wrong, but CAE's amplifier switcher unit has the ability to do a master line out and also has a global effects loop am i right?

only downside is the price for the unit is around $1,800. but you can use up to 4 amplifiers through 1 cabinet and switch between them as much as you want independently.

 

[billm408]

I am aiming to use three amps at once for my rig,

Do you have a roadie? He must hate you!

 

[JTyson]

I have a Voodoo switcher, it changes the tone of the guitar too much. The ground lifts work great, no noise, it switches quietly, but I could not get past the tone change. The only way I know how to describe it is "weaker"- Less depth, less sparkle. I really wanted that to be the solution for me, but I have thought about a Lehle Sunday Driver going in to the Voodoo to compensate, I just havent gotten around to trying it. It seems like it might be a solution, though. I havent tried the Lehle switcher's, I've heard good stuff about them, but I heard the same thing about the Voodoo I feel your pain bro There are ways to switch the loops, but not with the Voodoo. Would be willing to bet Dave at Racksystems could build you a switcher that could switch heads and loops at the same time, but for what it would cost, you could buy 2 more G-majors and then some. I would pick the best sounding "dry" head, and leave it dry, and mix the others with the efx you need. It should cut better in a mix, for sure if there is another guitar player in your band, and would save some coin - Jim

 

[Gambit]

Hey guys, I really like the feel of this board, people seem like they genuinely want to help and I appreciate that a lot.

I am not running three seperate heads into one cab, lol, three seperate heads, three seperate speakers... It may only be two in time, or two in one speaker, one alone in its own speaker... but no way am I trying to run three heads into one speaker.

I dont even want to be able to change between the amps really, I'm much more interested in using the amps simultaniously so I can mold a new sound.

You would think you'd be able to go from the amps FX loops to a rack mixer... from the mixer to the FX... from the FX back to the mixer... and then from the mixer back to amps FX loops returns.

It would be cheaper for me to buy 3 g majors or whatever the piece, each independently assigned to each amp, than it would be for me to buy a two thousand dollar amp switcher with a "universal" FX loop.

Dont get me wrong, I would love the idea of the Universal FX loop, ultimately thats what I'm trying to do, but 2 grand is a lot to get it done!


any other ideas from any pros here?

 

[stefvorcide]

what are the 3 amps ? and to achieve which tones??

 

[steve_k]

Hey guys, I really like the feel of this board, people seem like they genuinely want to help and I appreciate that a lot.

I am not running three seperate heads into one cab, lol, three seperate heads, three seperate speakers... It may only be two in time, or two in one speaker, one alone in its own speaker... but no way am I trying to run three heads into one speaker.

I dont even want to be able to change between the amps really, I'm much more interested in using the amps simultaniously so I can mold a new sound.

You would think you'd be able to go from the amps FX loops to a rack mixer... from the mixer to the FX... from the FX back to the mixer... and then from the mixer back to amps FX loops returns.

It would be cheaper for me to buy 3 g majors or whatever the piece, each independently assigned to each amp, than it would be for me to buy a two thousand dollar amp switcher with a "universal" FX loop.

Dont get me wrong, I would love the idea of the Universal FX loop, ultimately thats what I'm trying to do, but 2 grand is a lot to get it done!


any other ideas from any pros here?

Dude - you are going to have to spend some more dough on some hardware to run 3 heads. First you will need to understand what you are doing and where you are going. You have a single input, being split to 3 heads. Even with the best of equipment, ground loops and less so, phasing, will be your enemy. Whether it is a switch or a splitter, you got to tackle this first. I find Voodoo's amp switcher to be a steaming pile of pony loaf. The outputs are not very isolated. For the production market and assuming you want something like now, get a Lehle 1->3 switcher or a Palmer. A Voodoo GCX is not very user friendly for multiple amps. You can come out of the loop sends to the amps, but you have to use Y-cables. Anytime you have a Y-cable, look for trouble, as in more ground loops and blown fuses in your amps. Bradshaw makes a 4x4 switcher and it is hands down the best on the market. Bob is slow as molasses getting anything built though. I found one on eBay and it works great. His boxes are set up with NC loops and you can go straight from sends on the loop controls to the amp. If you do this, use a MIDI controller instead of an amp switcher mentioned above. This is really the way to go. His stuff his high dollar, but worth every penny. As for you FX loops, you can use your G Major into a stereo line mixer but you are going to have a hell of a time dialing things in. Assuming you don't want the loops on all the time, you will have a hell of a time tap dancing for amp control. Setting up a wet/dry/wet configuration is by far the easiest and sounds better, more full and less sterile than your way and will be much easier to operate.

http://www.customaudioelectronics.com send Bob an email, tell him what you want to do, and he can sort it for you. He will sometimes make you feel like a dumb ass, but he still has good custom stuff.

Steve

 

[Shark Diver]

I have used a Lehle P-splitter with no phase or ground issues. But that's only 2 amps. Also, Egnater makes a really good amp switcher. But again, only one amp at a time.

So, if you really want 3 amps at once, each in it's own cab, and they all have an fx loop - then I would get a Switchblade. It is 100% routable for your loop sends and returns on the amps plus you would be able to send all 3 amp sends into your fx unit. Quite honestly though I think that would sound really, really bad.

The wet dry rig idea would make the most sense. Still using the SwitchBlade. You could chose which amp was the dry (and switch between all of them for this), and run any one of the 3 amps into the fx unit, 2 if stereo, back into the 2 "wet" amps - if parallel with their original dry tone as well.

As stated, you are looking at major phasing issues, plus the ground (though I think these are easier solved).

I wouldn't use fx on 3 amps, even with 3 different fx units. I would think that would get very muddy and you will get lost in the mix.

Some problems I found when experimenting with this were: Though it is really cool to say, take a send from a SLO and run it into an EL34 amp and a 6L6 amp at the same time, to hear how the preamp section sounds with different tubes/transformers, it only works well some of the time. Other times the "other" tube set isn't eq'd the way you might for that preamp section (or visa versa) - so going back and forth didn't always work.

 

[steve_k]

Or, spend $1100 for one of these-Little Labs PCP. I keep one in my rack and have found it too be the only 100% reliable splitter with absolutely zero ground loop noise or phasing issues. It is a high end piece of kit and you won't find it at Guitar. All 3 outputs have individual transformer isolated outs, ground lift and phase control. Input can be from a buffered or non-buffered 1/4" or XLR. It also re-amps, but I have never fooled with that. It also has individual impedance control for each of the 3 outputs which attempts to match differing impedance levels found with instrument/line level sources.

I ordered mine from Mercenary Audio. You can check them out at http://www.littlelabs.com/pcp.html along with Johnathan Little's other widgets.

Steve

 

[Gambit]

I have a Voodoo switcher, it changes the tone of the guitar too much. The ground lifts work great, no noise, it switches quietly, but I could not get past the tone change. The only way I know how to describe it is "weaker"- Less depth, less sparkle. I really wanted that to be the solution for me, but I have thought about a Lehle Sunday Driver going in to the Voodoo to compensate, I just havent gotten around to trying it. It seems like it might be a solution, though. I havent tried the Lehle switcher's, I've heard good stuff about them, but I heard the same thing about the Voodoo I feel your pain bro There are ways to switch the loops, but not with the Voodoo. Would be willing to bet Dave at Racksystems could build you a switcher that could switch heads and loops at the same time, but for what it would cost, you could buy 2 more G-majors and then some. I would pick the best sounding "dry" head, and leave it dry, and mix the others with the efx you need. It should cut better in a mix, for sure if there is another guitar player in your band, and would save some coin - Jim

Hey dude thanks for the reply.

When people are saying wet/dry, do they mean one amp is clean (no FX) and the other is running wet (with FX)... so I would only be using the FX loop on one of the amps?

I'm leaning towards using 2 speakers and three heads. Mesa Tremoverb, Marshall JCM 2000 and eventually a Orange rockerverb. I want to be able to switch them on and off to experiment with different sounds in different songs.

Maybe I could set one amp completely dry, and then have seperate FX going to the other two?

This also doesnt solve the issue of using multiple amps though... it seems here the VOODOO labs stuff isnt highly regarded... aside from having something custom built is there anything we like here?


Thanks everyone

 

[Gambit]

Hey guys, I really like the feel of this board, people seem like they genuinely want to help and I appreciate that a lot.

I am not running three seperate heads into one cab, lol, three seperate heads, three seperate speakers... It may only be two in time, or two in one speaker, one alone in its own speaker... but no way am I trying to run three heads into one speaker.

I dont even want to be able to change between the amps really, I'm much more interested in using the amps simultaniously so I can mold a new sound.

You would think you'd be able to go from the amps FX loops to a rack mixer... from the mixer to the FX... from the FX back to the mixer... and then from the mixer back to amps FX loops returns.

It would be cheaper for me to buy 3 g majors or whatever the piece, each independently assigned to each amp, than it would be for me to buy a two thousand dollar amp switcher with a "universal" FX loop.

Dont get me wrong, I would love the idea of the Universal FX loop, ultimately thats what I'm trying to do, but 2 grand is a lot to get it done!


any other ideas from any pros here?

Dude - you are going to have to spend some more dough on some hardware to run 3 heads. First you will need to understand what you are doing and where you are going. You have a single input, being split to 3 heads. Even with the best of equipment, ground loops and less so, phasing, will be your enemy. Whether it is a switch or a splitter, you got to tackle this first. I find Voodoo's amp switcher to be a steaming pile of pony loaf. The outputs are not very isolated. For the production market and assuming you want something like now, get a Lehle 1->3 switcher or a Palmer. A Voodoo GCX is not very user friendly for multiple amps. You can come out of the loop sends to the amps, but you have to use Y-cables. Anytime you have a Y-cable, look for trouble, as in more ground loops and blown fuses in your amps. Bradshaw makes a 4x4 switcher and it is hands down the best on the market. Bob is slow as molasses getting anything built though. I found one on eBay and it works great. His boxes are set up with NC loops and you can go straight from sends on the loop controls to the amp. If you do this, use a MIDI controller instead of an amp switcher mentioned above. This is really the way to go. His stuff his high dollar, but worth every penny. As for you FX loops, you can use your G Major into a stereo line mixer but you are going to have a hell of a time dialing things in. Assuming you don't want the loops on all the time, you will have a hell of a time tap dancing for amp control. Setting up a wet/dry/wet configuration is by far the easiest and sounds better, more full and less sterile than your way and will be much easier to operate.

http://www.customaudioelectronics.com send Bob an email, tell him what you want to do, and he can sort it for you. He will sometimes make you feel like a dumb ass, but he still has good custom stuff.

Steve

Hey man, I am trying to understand your reply but I really am new to this so I'm just trying to sort a lot of new info out.

As far as groud loops and phasing, can you go a bit more in detail as to what those two problems specifically are. I know a bit about phasing, not ground loops though.

Lehle 1->3 switcher or a Palmer. I dont know a lot about them, as far a being able to run simultanous amps, not just switching between them is there one you prefer?

Can you please explain how to set up the wet/dry/wet configuration?

thank you man!!

 

[glpg80]

a common ground is when you have a piece of gear that needs to terminate to a earth ground source independently from other gear. its in its design.

a ground loop is exactly that - a common ground is not getting a common earth connection properly or independently. usually guitar cables are a major hastle here. ground loops raise a noise floor tremendously with hum and white noise. finding and isolating ground loops can be a big pain in the ass - you need to watch this carefully as it can also make recording amplifier rigs even more of a hastle.

in designing amplifiers like bogner and alot of the custom stuff you will see around this forum, they are expensive in price because they watch ground terminations and internal wiring layouts very carefully to even further prevent ground loops internally inside the amplifier.

phasing is short for phase angles - you have 0* and 180*. each gain stage on a tubed amplifier amplifies the signal a certain AC voltage, and also flips the frequency 180*.

if you have 2 or 3 amplifiers running at once, all on different phase angles, it will sound like complete and utter shit. it wont mix well, and can be misterious in mis-guiding you in your tone quest.

subwoofers in high end quality, HI-FI audio systems understand this phase angle system, and have a switch on powered independent systems to go between 0* and 180* phase angle to match the incoming signal source to the rest of the audio system being powered by a different source.

as far as a WDW setup goes, i posted a large post on it here on the forum not too long ago. ill make everyones time more valuable and get cracking on finding it...

 

[glpg80]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54258&p=618370

 

[Gambit]

Hey man, I watched the bradshaw interview and I tried to understand the thread but I am absolutely lost!


Are there any good diagrams or even basic reading that might help me get a handle on this?

 

[glpg80]

Hey man, I watched the bradshaw interview and I tried to understand the thread but I am absolutely lost!


Are there any good diagrams or even basic reading that might help me get a handle on this?

theres a picture you need to look at and study that is by hal9000. all the info you could ever want and more is in that topic, theres really nothing else that can be added here.

as for the youtube video - dont expect to understand that video here on RT. thats a $25,000 rig and is one of the most complicated/best sounding rigs to exist.

since you compain about spending $1800 then units he is using in that rig would not do you any good anyway.

again, revist that topic and study the picture at the top. thats all you need bro. theres alot of good information there - like i said theres really nothing else that can be said here man. its everything about W/D/W setups.

 

[Gambit]

I'll go back to the topic and try to understand some of it.

If I have to spend 1800 I will, I simply didnt think what I was asking was as complex as it obviously is.