How to convince your drummer......reference clips added

[maddnotez]

That he is wrong

I am working with this guy who is a really decent drummer. He does not have the I am always right attitude, in fact we compromise pretty well together. However there is this one thing that I feel that I am right about and he always wants to argue this.

Tempos:

I will admit I am not very well versed in knowing different time signatures and writing music.

I have however been playing for a very long time, maybe twice as long as the drummer and for me when I play guitar and write a song there is a certain feel to it.

That feel can not be captured without the correct tempo. It seems impossible I have tried testing this with a metronome and it just loses something.

This drummer wants to record to a click which is great. I honor that, especially seeing how most other drummers that I have worked with can not play to a click if their life depended on it.

The issue is that he is convinced that every song we write and play MUST be a constant tempo within the song.

Each song can have their own tempo but he says that we can absolutely not change the tempo during a song.

To me that is a big issue because of what I posted above about the feel.

I wrote a song that is mostly at 108 BPM however there are two parts within that song that are 92 BPM and I feel there is no way to change that and keep the feel and the emotional effects of the song.

I have tried the whole song at 108, I have tried the whole song at 92 and I have tried the average 100bpm. It just does not work.

I do not know what to do in this situation. I do not want to quit building this band.

He is a really good drummer but at the same time I feel that if I stay passive and let him have his way with this tempo situation, everytime I am recording and/or performing a song and each time these parts come up it is going to really piss me off because I know it is not correct.

Thoughts, opinions?

Just trying to think of a tactful way to approach this.

 

[mchn13]

Drummers are inherently damaged humans, and you may have to give up on logic altogether and ply him with candy or booze. Whatever works on this particular mongoloid.

Steve

 

[maddnotez]

Drummers are inherently damaged humans, and you may have to give up on logic altogether and ply him with candy or booze. Whatever works on this particular mongoloid.

Steve

mongoloid

Naturally the asshole in me wants to say, are you just not good enough to change the tempo when a riff changes?

But that is just rude and dumb, I want it to be easy and non confrontational but I am not good at that.

 

[sytharnia1560]

its not uncommon for band members to want to change a song to suit their playing style. It sounds like you have tried it "his" way but I know from experience that it is very hard to "unwrite" a song once you have worked it to the point of calling it a song. Its also hard for others to hear the song how you do because its not personal to them....who rights the click track?? maybe if you mapped it out and put the tempo changes in he might come around once he figures out somethings different (see first reply ). Maybe get another person to listen to the track/s both ways to help reinforce your side

stick to your gun man ... if it feels right to you then it is right

 

[Anonymous]

Find a new drummer... the song comes 1st

 

[maddnotez]

its not uncommon for band members to want to change a song to suit their playing style. It sounds like you have tried it "his" way but I know from experience that it is very hard to "unwrite" a song once you have worked it to the point of calling it a song. Its also hard for others to hear the song how you do because its not personal to them....who rights the click track?? maybe if you mapped it out and put the tempo changes in he might come around once he figures out somethings different (see first reply ). Maybe get another person to listen to the track/s both ways to help reinforce your side

stick to your gun man ... if it feels right to you then it is right

yes, good call. I think this weekend I will record the guitars to a click and then remove the click and send it to him.

Find a new drummer... the song comes 1st

Easier said then done. We are doing a very diverse metal band. Mixing as much as we can within the metal genre minus djent.

It is a very commanding position for a drummer to fill. I quit my last band about a year and a half ago mainly because the drummer was not progressing and could barely keep up anymore.

This new guy that i am working with has been the first drummer I have found in a year and a half that is actually good enough to do it, actually likes and wants to do it, is not a douchebag, drug addict or just a loser and pretty much has hit shit together.

The area I live in is not metal friendly at all and there are not really too many capable prospects that are not already in a band.

 

[reverymike]

Here is a GREAT way to test this situation. Record the song with a click, and then without (with varied tempos). Then listen.

99% of the time, the version WITH the click will sound best and most natural. This might surprise you, but it's true.

We had a song that had an intro and middle section that was just guitar and vocal, and we were convinced that it needed to 'breath' and be a little slower than the rest of the song. However, when we recorded it both ways and listened back, it was overwhelming that despite the awkward feeling when recording. . .it was the click version that sounded best.

 

[maddnotez]

Here is a GREAT way to test this situation. Record the song with a click, and then without (with varied tempos). Then listen.

99% of the time, the version WITH the click will sound best and most natural. This might surprise you, but it's true.

We had a song that had an intro and middle section that was just guitar and vocal, and we were convinced that it needed to 'breath' and be a little slower than the rest of the song. However, when we recorded it both ways and listened back, it was overwhelming that despite the awkward feeling when recording. . .it was the click version that sounded best.

Definitely worth giving a shot.

I am confused a little. I think I know what you are saying, record to a click with the whole song at the same tempo?

Will definitely give it a shot but the intention was to always record to a click but only program the tempo changes accordingly.

 

[garey77]

Two words bro: Dream Theater. They do this a ton in their music.

 

[LLEADD]

Here is a GREAT way to test this situation. Record the song with a click, and then without (with varied tempos). Then listen.

99% of the time, the version WITH the click will sound best and most natural. This might surprise you, but it's true.

We had a song that had an intro and middle section that was just guitar and vocal, and we were convinced that it needed to 'breath' and be a little slower than the rest of the song. However, when we recorded it both ways and listened back, it was overwhelming that despite the awkward feeling when recording. . .it was the click version that sounded best.

I would do the above, record both and compare. You could even try just recording yourself with both versions then showing him the difference.
Then you'll know where everyone stands.

 

[maddnotez]

Here is a GREAT way to test this situation. Record the song with a click, and then without (with varied tempos). Then listen.

99% of the time, the version WITH the click will sound best and most natural. This might surprise you, but it's true.

We had a song that had an intro and middle section that was just guitar and vocal, and we were convinced that it needed to 'breath' and be a little slower than the rest of the song. However, when we recorded it both ways and listened back, it was overwhelming that despite the awkward feeling when recording. . .it was the click version that sounded best.

I would do the above, record both and compare. You could even try just recording yourself with both versions then showing him the difference.
Then you'll know where everyone stands.

Still confused on what the hell he was even saying

We will ALWAYS record with a click. The topic was about tempo changes vs. same tempo throughout the song.

I am going to assume you guys mean try both:

Record the song with tempo changes.

Record the song without tempo changes.


Also....What does Dream Theatre do alot? Change tempos?

 

[reverymike]

I was thinking you were talking more about slight changes in tempo (due to the feel) - not vastly different sections. In that case, I think it just depends on what kind of band you are, and how you want your song to feel.

It'll be more progressive sounding with different sections at different tempos. You're not going to hear too many songs like that on the radio, etc. I agree Dream Theater is a good example.

 

[sytharnia1560]

Here is a GREAT way to test this situation. Record the song with a click, and then without (with varied tempos). Then listen.

99% of the time, the version WITH the click will sound best and most natural. This might surprise you, but it's true.

We had a song that had an intro and middle section that was just guitar and vocal, and we were convinced that it needed to 'breath' and be a little slower than the rest of the song. However, when we recorded it both ways and listened back, it was overwhelming that despite the awkward feeling when recording. . .it was the click version that sounded best.

good points re locking in tempo

I have a problem with a song/riff at the moment where I play it with out a click and it sounds cool but when I do a click and play to that it loses its vibe. I haven't sat down and really worked on where the problem is yet... may just be finding the right tempo

I have a song that goes 4/4 for 3 bars then 5/4 for the 4th, really made making a click time consuming ... but then every drummer I have played with has said the stuff I write sounds simple be is a bitch to drum to Maybe thats why I can't find a drummer for my new band

 

[dirtyfunkg]

Such a drastic tempo change usually needs to be accompanied by a time signature change for any semblance of natural feel to remain, and usually the tempo/signature changes are based on common multiples and factors if you're going to go that route. Having not heard the music and not really completely understanding what you're going for, I tend to lean towards your drummer in this argument, though I totally understand the frustration.

Try doing what reverymike suggested. It may surprise you.

 

[flash6969]

Tell him it can be subtle thing, & doesn't have to change in every song but yes; tempo changes can help

Eg; "feels like the first time" by Foreigner. 107bpm through the verses & chorus, then slows to 102 for the middle 8. Back to 107 for the return of the chorus!

 

[ibenhad]

Find some already recorded material that shows him what you are talking about. Let him hear it and walk through it with him. If he still doesn't get it maybe another drummer is in order.

 

[mystixboi]

One option you have, is if you're recording into ProTools or logic you can set the amount of measures at a certain tempo and then change the tempo for the other measures and then change it back. It takes a bit of programming but it can be done it will probably be the best of both worlds

 

[crwnedblasphemy]

can't change the tempo? hahaha wtf? Really? tempo and time signatures change all the time....every classical musical arrangement i have ever played or have seen has this...but i guess it's a no no in rock?

It would get to me too man. stick to your guns.

 

[Badronald]

Drummers.

Since I got Ez Drummer I put all the drums together and show him what to play. I used to defer to him but since I have the program I work out the parts myself.

He's even said, damn, you don't need me anymore. I don't respond.

 

[tubortski]

If the tempo changes serves to the song, makes it what it is, and adds your style... then make it happen. Map out the tempo change with click track. You will probably have to work out a few transitions to find the right one.