how to play with another guitar in the band?

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sixty-niner

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hello gentlemen,
I am in a new band (the new guy in the band) and the second guitar player. While my skill lever is much higher then the other guitar player I think we gel very well. We play a variety of classic rock and current stuff and I am using a modded marshall100 watt amp (2 channel friedman modded steve stevens amp cleans and effects loop with Cameron style gain) while the other guitar player has a small fender combo and uses a grip of pedals for distortion (which don't sound very good but I aint one to gossip so you didn't hear that from me). I am new to playing with another guitar player and am having trouble with levels of volume. On rock songs his sound cuts through very nicely because its quite clean and just barley broken up while mine I have a very hard time even hearing myself play. In practice I would turn up so I can hear myself and it was too loud (per everyone in the band), so I have played while not being able to hear myself in practice to appease everyone else. I boost my solos so I can hear them. Well, we played our first gig and we got ALOT of feedback. feedback like "why in the hell aren't you playing all of the solos??? the other guy can't!!!" "Why cant we hear you???? You need to turn up a lot more!!!" The good thing is that this feedback was given so everyone in the band could hear it so I think things will change this next practice but I still don't know how to level out my guitar so that I can hear myself and not blow him away with volume. Is there a way to position your amplifier? Should I back off on the gain?
any suggestions are very welcome.
 
I had the exact same problem w/ volume, not skill level. Then I started using a Soldano HR50+ and the problem was gone.
You could also try backing off the gain and bumping up the mids for more cut.
 
Too much gain is the biggest problem I see with most guitarists nowadays. We get so used to getting our amps to sound good when we are by ourselves that we loose touch with how to make the guitar sound good in a band.

Hard truth: Your guitar will not sound as good as when you have it setup at home. In order to get it to gel with the other instruments, you MUST reduce your gain - by as much as half - and if you are used to scooping your mids, go the other way and increase the mids. You will probably need to reduce your bass too. Remember - even though we don't like them, we have bassists for a reason. lol ;)

Another problem I see are with how modern amps are voiced. It seems like many of the "boutique" amps out there today are voiced to replicate the guitar sounds from the sound we hear on the actual recordings instead of how the amp actually sounded when it was being recorded. This is a problem with many of the modelers too. I see tons of clips where someone is trying to replicate player 'X''s sound on record 'Y' and they pretty much nail that exact sound. But here's the problem - the reference point is the guitar AFTER it's been squished with compression, eq'd, pre-amped, re-amped, mixed with other amps, multiple speakers, and on and on. Very rarely does the sound you hear on a record reflect the sound of the amp when recorded. Now, if you are a builder who is creating all these sweet, $4,000 custom amps to sound like so-and-so, it's awesome marketing to show somebody nailing the tone of a well respected player. But if you try to use said amp in a band setting, you may struggle. I'm not saying these amps are bad in any way. Just that you have to know what you are dealing with going in. There is a reason Marshall and Fender amps have been used on so many records. They sound GREAT with a band. I have heard MANY guys say, "Those Marshalls are so damn 'ice-picky'". Well, yeah - sometimes by themselves they can be harsh. But get them in a good room with a good band and magic happens.
 
If you normally play in a three piece you can afford to have a pretty wide guitar sound.

Once you go two guitars you have to divide up the sonic spectrum and work out between the two of you where you're going to sit. You might wind up with something that sounds terrible when heard solo, yet awesome when both of you and the bass are kickin. Some bands will have one guitar in the high mids with another guitar in the low mids. Some bands have a very bright guitar with the other guy being kind of dull.

As for "small fender combo", are we talking Champ? Deluxe? Twin? Some oddball hybrid thing with built in effects?
 
IceMan pretty much nailed it.

Also - are you guys mic'ing?

If so, best to mic both your rigs and compare the actual mic'd sound.

Your rig might sound better in person but there may be something missing when you both mic up.

Mic used, mic positioning etc.
So many variables.

A mic and it's position can have more effect on your tone than turning the amp's knobs sometimes.

And the audience are hearing your mic'd tone, not the tone you hear out the cabs.
 
IceMan":3ay1jql8 said:
Too much gain is the biggest problem I see with most guitarists nowadays. We get so used to getting our amps to sound good when we are by ourselves that we loose touch with how to make the guitar sound good in a band.

Hard truth: Your guitar will not sound as good as when you have it setup at home. In order to get it to gel with the other instruments, you MUST reduce your gain - by as much as half - and if you are used to scooping your mids, go the other way and increase the mids. You will probably need to reduce your bass too. Remember - even though we don't like them, we have bassists for a reason. lol ;)

Another problem I see are with how modern amps are voiced. It seems like many of the "boutique" amps out there today are voiced to replicate the guitar sounds from the sound we hear on the actual recordings instead of how the amp actually sounded when it was being recorded. This is a problem with many of the modelers too. I see tons of clips where someone is trying to replicate player 'X''s sound on record 'Y' and they pretty much nail that exact sound. But here's the problem - the reference point is the guitar AFTER it's been squished with compression, eq'd, pre-amped, re-amped, mixed with other amps, multiple speakers, and on and on. Very rarely does the sound you hear on a record reflect the sound of the amp when recorded. Now, if you are a builder who is creating all these sweet, $4,000 custom amps to sound like so-and-so, it's awesome marketing to show somebody nailing the tone of a well respected player. But if you try to use said amp in a band setting, you may struggle. I'm not saying these amps are bad in any way. Just that you have to know what you are dealing with going in. There is a reason Marshall and Fender amps have been used on so many records. They sound GREAT with a band. I have heard MANY guys say, "Those Marshalls are so damn 'ice-picky'". Well, yeah - sometimes by themselves they can be harsh. But get them in a good room with a good band and magic happens.
Click to expand...
Great thread but it can end with IceMan's post. :rock:
The problem with trying to play at home with what you know will work live is that you will go deaf :yes:
 
Been through this before, boost your mids. I love the way my guitar sounds at home with the mids scooped but in a live environment with the other guitar player in the band I would get completely buried in the mix and go completely unheard. Iceman's post is dead-on in the fact that we "engineer" our sound at home to sound like the bands we listen to but it will completely disappear in the mix.

I used to have a similar problem with bass - I would hear these amazing metal tones on a cd and think "why doesn't my low end sound that heavy???" Tons of layered tracks with bass parts doubling the guitars. What I finally figured out is that when you hear a great artist's rig live or on YouTube or on isolated tracks it just sounds different than how it sounds in the mix and to let the bass player do his part lol
 
great info, thanks guys. I will drop my gain (hmm....sniff) and boost my mids and tell you all how it goes.
 
Interesting post by Iceman but largely crap. I doubt the modded boutique amp by the OP is only good for replicating album tones in your bedroom while a stock Marshall is your only salvation in a band.
Boost mids and -since you're the lead player- you should be louder than that other guitarist. He needs to turn down. Watch what happens when you play when he's absent & I bet the mix for your amp is glorious!
 
Agree with most of what has been said here. Also, try to get some space between you and your cab. At least 10 ft. If you are too close to the cab the wave really hasn't developed for some of the frequencies until it is past you so you can barely hear yourself, meanwhile you can be blowing the other guys out. Also, I like to put the 2nd guitar player on the other side of the stage from me and I'll hear him through the monitors. Two cabs on the same side of the drummer can turn into a mess. Sometimes its tough or impossible on a small cramped stage. Live sound is a whole other animal. Also, what was said about micing the cab is true. That's why even though I have some nice amps and use them live, the out front tone is a POD. Too many variables with micing a guitar cab and most of the time your in a hurry to set up and somebody just sticks an SM57 in front of your cab somewhere and hope it sounds ok. At least the POD is consistent if mediocre. I've been where you are now OP. Notice my location.
 
How do I play with another guitar player? I don't. So tired of the other guy making mistakes or playing out of tune and the crowd looking at me.

As stated mids are what cuts through in a band. This is the first time I've ever endorsed this amp. But it's what an 800 is great at. Stand alone I don't like them. Loud in a band and you'll be heard. Plus you already said you boost your amp. An 800 needs that. With my old 5150 I'd turn the mids up slightly. Made it sound better and I could hear myself better. Then home alone I'd turn them back down.
 
Everything mentioned above. More mids and less gain. Played in a two guitar band for years splitting lead duties. When we first got together I used a block letter 5150 half stack and he used some Mesa amp on the clean with a BOSS Heavy Metal pedal. Sounded like garbage. Very scooped. He was just drowned in the mix over everything. Needless to say he ran out and found him a 5150 signature logo model and sounded better but our sounds were to similar. Eventually it was two guitar players and a keyboard player. Talk about having to find your spot in the mix. :doh: Eventually when the other guitar player left I said enough. I want to be the only guitar player. We have a keyboard player who can fill in rhythm lines behind my leads and it adds so much more to the band. Never looked back. Will never play in a two guitar player band again.
 
yeah 2 guitar bands are tough. Both players need to be sensitive to the other player. I play with a keyboard player now and I like that better. But Iceman's post is on point.....
 
I agree with Iceman. I have a friend I jam with we both have 5153 mine a 50 his a 100 he has to crank his and it disappears in a mix. To much gain no mids blends in with everything. I can hear myself no problem at less volume I run mids high bass low gain as low as I can. When alone I change settings but he does not get this concept and goes louder and wants to get another 4x12. I think everybody should listen to isolated tracks from time to time of some of there favorite songs and get amp to sound accordingly.

MrHiwatt
 
I agree with Iceman as well. I've been telling people the same thing for years. First they'd hear my tone and love it. Then play by myself, and it sounds a bit thin. Adding just drums back into the mix and you could hear the guitar thicken up. It's all about your part in the mix. The guys I've jammed with who had Rectos always got lost in the mix trying to dial in massive sounds. I'd always have them turn the bass down, and mids up.
 
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