I have a decision to make. C -> C+ or C++?

[NewWorldMan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypJfEnAWc6A

Fact is truth.

This proves exactly what I was saying. You're trying to get middle ground of settings for decent cleans and heavy chunk, and the result is your cleans are clipping vs a + and that overdrive is thinned out considerably because you're trying to dial it down enough to keep your cleans from distorting.

The Vol 1 dial decides the thickness of the sound, as it is before the tone controls in the signal chain. This is a fact.

And once again, proving my point for me. I'm shocked that anyone here is trying to argue that Mike Bendinelli is wrong regarding the ++. Have fun with that...

 

[glip22]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypJfEnAWc6A

Fact is truth.

This proves exactly what I was saying. You're trying to get middle ground of settings for decent cleans and heavy chunk, and the result is your cleans are clipping vs a + and that overdrive is thinned out considerably because you're trying to dial it down enough to keep your cleans from distorting.

The Vol 1 dial decides the thickness of the sound, as it is before the tone controls in the signal chain. This is a fact.

And once again, proving my point for me. I'm shocked that anyone here is trying to argue that Mike Bendinelli is wrong regarding the ++. Have fun with that...

The clean channel is definitely less clean with the ++. However you can have Mike add a second volume(Input) knob which is not expensive for him to do. You have probably had this mod in the front footswitch jack. He moves the switch to the line out jack on the rear. As you know this allows for two separate volume knobs. With this mod you can set the clean input lower or higher depending if you are getting your clean tone dropping your guitars volume.
I'm sure you have had this. How did this help with the cleaner tone and volume matching with the lead?

 

[NewWorldMan]

Yeah, I've had a few with the V1 mod. I actually sold one of them to a fellow RT member. It's a cool mod, helps tremendously when balancing out clean vs dirty. It can still be a tricky balance between the two, but it's better.

I think people confuse "destroying the clean tone" as Mike B says and as I and others have mentioned with "not able to achieve a clean-ish" tone. They're not the same thing. Every time this gets brought up, you inevitably have someone that misses the point entirely posting saying "That's not true, I can get a clean tone with my C++!" Yes, you can dial in a clean type tone on a C++, but it will never be as clean as a C+. The character is different, the channel is juiced too hot, etc. There's an entire range of overtones and cleans that the C+ does that the C++ cannot access.

The C+ has one of the best clean tones you'll ever play. That character is destroyed with the ++ mod. Can it still get clean if you turn the V1 control way down? Sure, but it's a compromise to the dirty and it will never be the same as iconic and often overlooked cleans on the C+.

 

[psychodave]

I agree. The clean on the ++ is good, but not like it is on the +.

 

[GJgo]

Last night I sat down with the IIC, my beloved III, and my V30 cab, my G12T-75 cab, and the EVM12L in the combo shell. I played all the combinations. I used to love my III so much- till I played it next to the IIC. Now I can't imagine turning the III on if the amps are in the same room.

I haven't heard back from Mike on the "what would you do" question yet, but right now I'm still leaning toward a standard +. There's a certain tone & feel I hear in all the + audio that I just don't hear in the ++ audio clips. I know that won't really tell me the whole story because I'm not the player but that's all I've got at the moment.

 

[glip22]

Last night I sat down with the IIC, my beloved III, and my V30 cab, my G12T-75 cab, and the EVM12L in the combo shell. I played all the combinations. I used to love my III so much- till I played it next to the IIC. Now I can't imagine turning the III on if the amps are in the same room.

I haven't heard back from Mike on the "what would you do" question yet, but right now I'm still leaning toward a standard +. There's a certain tone & feel I hear in all the + audio that I just don't hear in the ++ audio clips. I know that won't really tell me the whole story because I'm not the player but that's all I've got at the moment.

Ask Mike how much the difference is to make the ++ mod switchable over the + mod and decide. The hardest part of the mod is to make your C a C+, but because he is starting with a C it may be less costly.
He'll call you back, usually later in the day.He could be off also. If you are definitely serious about sending it in, call Rich up for an RMA number. He'll tell you if Mike is in this week. Either option you do the amp will be great.

I bought a super clean C+ from a member here. It was a C, made a +, during the early option to send it back to Mesa.
The low end was lacking a little bit. Mike said the amp must have sat because the caps were basically shot. He said there was an odd resistor value in the lead channel that was off from spec. He said this value was giving the amp a cleaner tone. He was going to change that anyway with the mod. The amp also had an odd value master volume pot. He changed that.
He said the earlier amps had anomalies Mesa would do in those days. Point is he will will tell you everything about the amp. You're in for a great customer service experience with Mesa. When mine came back, and after a little break in, it was a different amp. Big low end that feels and sounds great.

 

[Racerxrated]

I haven't played my C+ much over the past few weeks, but I did yesterday and realized that I had Vol 1 down too much, maxed it and wow what a difference. Incredible. Sounded great before but amazing now. I had vol 1 lower for a clean clean, with it maxed there is still some hair on it..I wonder if that's normal, or do I have a 2C+ and half a plus?

 

[GJgo]

That's normal. Volume 1 & treble are both really gain-ish knobs. Down for clean & up for gain is why guys say the amp isn't good for gigging, you can't really get both tones awesome with the flick of a footswitch.

I've got a new layer to the cake. This morning in a moment of weakness & desire I struck a killer deal with that guy 5 hours away to buy his factory IIC+ DRG 105PT. It's a white tolex combo. Guy has owned it since the 90s but it's been in the closet for the last 15 years he says. HOLY SHIT, I'm in it now! I sent him a deposit check to hold it till I can drive over there.

You know this means a IIC+ DRG vs. IIC+ HRGX vs. JP2C HRGG-&-I-think-X review is coming... Now I just need some decent recording gear!

 

[Holy-diver]

this actually means you should opt for the ++ on the other one you have

 

[GJgo]

Yeah, I thought about that. Keep the HRGX a + and make the DRG a ++. I could go for that.

 

[Holy-diver]

Yeah, I thought about that. Keep the HRGX a + and make the DRG a ++. I could go for that.

 

[NewWorldMan]

Yeah, I thought about that. Keep the HRGX a + and make the DRG a ++. I could go for that.

That's exactly what I did. Kept a completely stock '85 IIC+ DRG and had the '84 DRG made a IIC++...

 

[NewWorldMan]

I haven't played my C+ much over the past few weeks, but I did yesterday and realized that I had Vol 1 down too much, maxed it and wow what a difference. Incredible. Sounded great before but amazing now. I had vol 1 lower for a clean clean, with it maxed there is still some hair on it..I wonder if that's normal, or do I have a 2C+ and half a plus?

Definitely normal. That's why I say it's a compromise for gigging for me. I like the cleans to be really clean, but I run my Volume 1 on the C+ up around 9 to 9.5, so I'm kicking the clean signal in the face... Not to mention keeping the volumes in check between the channels. You can imagine how much more difficult it is on the ++ when the + already adds hair on the upper end of the V1 dial.

 

[Racerxrated]

I haven't played my C+ much over the past few weeks, but I did yesterday and realized that I had Vol 1 down too much, maxed it and wow what a difference. Incredible. Sounded great before but amazing now. I had vol 1 lower for a clean clean, with it maxed there is still some hair on it..I wonder if that's normal, or do I have a 2C+ and half a plus?

Definitely normal. That's why I say it's a compromise for gigging for me. I like the cleans to be really clean, but I run my Volume 1 on the C+ up around 9 to 9.5, so I'm kicking the clean signal in the face... Not to mention keeping the volumes in check between the channels. You can imagine how much more difficult it is on the ++ when the + already adds hair on the upper end of the V1 dial.

Yeah, I had been loving the clean so much I forgot to go back and max vol 1 for a more beastly Lead channel. Such a great amp!
I don't think i can do it..I'll just bide my time for another and send THAT one in!

 

[Racerxrated]

That's normal. Volume 1 & treble are both really gain-ish knobs. Down for clean & up for gain is why guys say the amp isn't good for gigging, you can't really get both tones awesome with the flick of a footswitch.

I've got a new layer to the cake. This morning in a moment of weakness & desire I struck a killer deal with that guy 5 hours away to buy his factory IIC+ DRG 105PT. It's a white tolex combo. Guy has owned it since the 90s but it's been in the closet for the last 15 years he says. HOLY SHIT, I'm in it now! I sent him a deposit check to hold it till I can drive over there.

You know this means a IIC+ DRG vs. IIC+ HRGX vs. JP2C HRGG-&-I-think-X review is coming... Now I just need some decent recording gear!

Nice! I'm kinda kicking myself, I should have kept the factory HRG and made that into a ++.....

 

[mojotone]

This might sound crazy, but could you not take a clean boost and reduce it beyond unity gain, and have it engage at the same time that you switch to the clean channel. This would be much like reducing the Vol 1 knob or an instantaneous guitar knob rollback. Food for thought. Hmmmmmmm ........ I like my Vol 1 knob high for a thick lead channel sound, though.

 

[Dror520]

This might sound crazy, but could you not take a clean boost and reduce it beyond unity gain, and have it engage at the same time that you switch to the clean channel. This would be much like reducing the Vol 1 knob or an instantaneous guitar knob rollback. Food for thought. Hmmmmmmm ........ I like my Vol 1 knob high for a thick lead channel sound, though.

I use an EQ pedal for the same idea. But with an EQ pedal I can change the tone a bit to improve the clean channel.

 

[GJgo]

Alright guys the decision has been made for the HRG, the check is in the mail. It's gonna be a +. Now I get to wait.

I bought a super clean & well made aftermarket headshell from a guy out East named Scott, if anyone is looking I can recommend his work.
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=73204&p=495406#p495406

That combo with the EVM12L is 76 lbs.! I'd like to stuff the EV in a Thiele cab, though, to try it out.

I put my beloved Mark III up for sale on the Bay to help cover the cost of what I'm about to do, which is spend way too much money on tonal heaven!

 

[Racerxrated]

Alright guys the decision has been made for the HRG, the check is in the mail. It's gonna be a +. Now I get to wait.

I bought a super clean & well made aftermarket headshell from a guy out East named Scott, if anyone is looking I can recommend his work.
http://forum.grailtone.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=73204&p=495406#p495406

That combo with the EVM12L is 76 lbs.! I'd like to stuff the EV in a Thiele cab, though, to try it out.

I put my beloved Mark III up for sale on the Bay to help cover the cost of what I'm about to do, which is spend way too much money on tonal heaven!

Let us know how it sounds upon return!

 

[GJgo]

Look at where Reza has his gain in this IIC++ clip. That's rolled way the hell back, even with treble & V1 dimed. Kind of gets to NWM's point about unusable gain at the top of the register. Damn, I wish I could play one before committing!

https://youtu.be/vyPR6MeIP4c