I have a decision to make. C -> C+ or C++?

[mojotone]

I use an xotic EP booster left on all the time with the knob set at 10:00, and an xotic RC booster for when I split the coils on the humbuckers to get the level back.Both of them are placed in front of the input jack. All this is with factory simulclass C+ amps. It can be done, and excellent cleans when I want them. It can be done!

 

[GJgo]

All C+s are upgraded Cs, the only difference is what year Mike did the upgrade! I've wanted one for so long I can't remember, so I'm just excited to get my hands on any version to be honest. To break it down Mike told me to mod my IIC it'd be $400 for the +, $600 for the ++ or $900 for the switchable ++. Looks like ++ is moving ahead in the polls.

I have a JP-2C, and from reading / listening around it's really kind of like a JP-2C++. HRGG. That amp has ridiculous amounts of gain. It's hard to back it off enough to just be dirty on the lead channels, at least with hot pickups. This is another reason I'm leaning towards staying with +. I've read Markedman's posts & videos comparing his two.

Racer, perhaps your original HRG needed a cap job? I've had two IIIs that really woke up after that was done. Just thinking out loud. Personal preference is 9/10s of it though so it's all good! Having to choose between two C+s, first world problems!

Lanier, I've got a headshell on order from a guy who does real nice work. $275 plus shipping. PM me if you want his contact info.

 

[glip22]

All C+s are upgraded Cs, the only difference is what year Mike did the upgrade! I've wanted one for so long I can't remember, so I'm just excited to get my hands on any version to be honest. To break it down Mike told me to mod my IIC it'd be $400 for the +, $600 for the ++ or $900 for the switchable ++. Looks like ++ is moving ahead in the polls.

I have a JP-2C, and from reading / listening around it's really kind of like a JP-2C++. HRGG. That amp has ridiculous amounts of gain. It's hard to back it off enough to just be dirty on the lead channels, at least with hot pickups. This is another reason I'm leaning towards staying with +. I've read Markedman's posts & videos comparing his two.

Racer, perhaps your original HRG needed a cap job? I've had two IIIs that really woke up after that was done. Just thinking out loud. Personal preference is 9/10s of it though so it's all good! Having to choose between two C+s, first world problems!

Lanier, I've got a headshell on order from a guy who does real nice work. $275 plus shipping. PM me if you want his contact info.

True. Owners of the C's were given the option to send the amp back, free of charge. for the upgrade to C+. They made the C into a C+ by swapping out the C boards for C+ boards. These amps left the factory, after the upgrade almost exactly like the factory C+. I think the difference was the C had "Gain Boost" written on the faceplate, whereas the C+ had "Pull Deep" After the boards ran out the existing board had to be modded to + spec. .

 

[psychodave]

I've have a bunch of 2C+ amp and my favorite is the 2C++ HRG. The hundred is more aggressive and sounds bigger than the simulclass 2C++ I had. The simulclass has a smoother lead tone though. I've had a Mark III++ with 105 transformer, regular Mark III++ as well as a Mark III++ coliseum. Like others have said, the ++ mod kills the clean channel, but not 100%... you can roll off the treble and channel volumes to get it back.

One that by I wish I had done to my 2C++ was to add a pentode/triode switch. In pentode, the amp sounds massive. A friend has a Mark III++ with 105 transformer and pentode/triode switch and it's a badass amp.

My last comment is regarding tubes. I am not a fan of the Tungsram preamp tubes that orig ally came in the 2C+. I love Tungsram tubes, but primarily in the PI slot. I feel the Sylvania STR 415 power tubes are a must. Sure other tubes can sound good, like TAD's, but the Sylvania 6L6's have that sound. There are still some around, but the simulclass sockets run hot so you need tubes that run colder. This is another reasons why I like my 100 2C++...I have no problem finding Sylvania's for it.

 

[Racerxrated]

All C+s are upgraded Cs, the only difference is what year Mike did the upgrade! I've wanted one for so long I can't remember, so I'm just excited to get my hands on any version to be honest. To break it down Mike told me to mod my IIC it'd be $400 for the +, $600 for the ++ or $900 for the switchable ++. Looks like ++ is moving ahead in the polls.

I have a JP-2C, and from reading / listening around it's really kind of like a JP-2C++. HRGG. That amp has ridiculous amounts of gain. It's hard to back it off enough to just be dirty on the lead channels, at least with hot pickups. This is another reason I'm leaning towards staying with +. I've read Markedman's posts & videos comparing his two.

Racer, perhaps your original HRG needed a cap job? I've had two IIIs that really woke up after that was done. Just thinking out loud. Personal preference is 9/10s of it though so it's all good! Having to choose between two C+s, first world problems!

Lanier, I've got a headshell on order from a guy who does real nice work. $275 plus shipping. PM me if you want his contact info.

^^ on what Dave said, vintage Sylvanias really make a difference in any Mark series. Huge. Imo. As far as the HRG, it might have needed a cap job but make no mistake, it was a killer amp and in no way was much different than my SRG, I just liked the SRG a bit more.
Headroom isn't as important to me since I love slaving it to a Strategy 400...

I still contemplate sending it back to Mike for the ++...

 

[GJgo]

Does anyone know of an audio sample of a + vs a ++?

Alright here's a power transformer question. From what I read in terms of value (but not necessarily player's preference), X101 > 105 > 100 > X62 > 00. Not sure where the 180W fits in there. Sound about right? Since Mesa is frugal sometimes you find parts where you didn't expect them.

I have a feeling that some of these chassis differences are splitting hairs, that they're all pretty epic.

 

[NewWorldMan]

Headroom isn't as important to me since I love slaving it to a Strategy 400...

Upon which you must immediately do your best Hetfield impersonation and crank out Metallica riffs. It's just the rule when slaving the IIC+ into a Strategy 400...

I was slow to come around to liking the STR 415 in the amps, but it's what I use now. I actually use a quad of 415s in the C++ and a pair of 415s and a pair of 416s (6CA7) in the C+.

 

[NewWorldMan]

Alright here's a power transformer question. From what I read in terms of value (but not necessarily player's preference), X101 > 105 > 100 > X62 > 00...

I don't know about value, but the ones I've had with the X101 were the ones I disliked the most. It wasn't just one amp, either. I've had a few with them and A/B'd them with others, and they were consistently the "worst" ones for me. Couldn't sell them fast enough. To each his own.

 

[Racerxrated]

Headroom isn't as important to me since I love slaving it to a Strategy 400...

Upon which you must immediately do your best Hetfield impersonation and crank out Metallica riffs. It's just the rule when slaving the IIC+ into a Strategy 400...

I was slow to come around to liking the STR 415 in the amps, but it's what I use now. I actually use a quad of 415s in the C++ and a pair of 415s and a pair of 416s (6CA7) in the C+.

I have 12 of them now, and 2 STR430s. The 2C+ gets 2 415s, and the strategy has 10 plus the 2 430s. That's a damn drug there, cranking that up a bit through 4 cabs!

 

[Dror520]

Psychodave and NewWorldMan, as you guys have such extensive experience with these amps, do you mind sharing your favorite settings on the C+/++?

Thanks!

 

[psychodave]

Here are my typical settings with EMG pickups. With passives I lower the bass and treble sliders a bit. I use all 8th generation preamp tubes and Sylvania 6L6's power tubes. EDIT: Presence on 3.

 

[NewWorldMan]

That's pretty close to my settings as well. I don't have a pic handy, but I'm usually...

Volume 1: 8-9
Treble: 7
Mids: 4
Bass: 2
Lead Drive: 6-8 (depends on pickups and playing volume)
Lead Master: 3-4
Presence: 4-5

In general, my 2200 slider is probably just below the middle line and 6600 is almost right on it. 750 is roughly the same. My 240 is usually in about the same as Dave's, but my 80 is lower, around the middle between the top and middle lines.

This also hinges on whether I'm using all the pull switches. The "Pull Shift" on Treble and "Pull Deep" on Master 1 are always pulled. I never use the "Pull Shift" on Bass. I do use the "Pull Bright" on Volume 1 and Lead Master when the mood hits, which alters my settings as well.

 

[GJgo]

On my Mark III I do a few different things when I'm in the mood that I think sound really cool. Gonna try it on the IIC as well. Here's one. Dime the volume, treble & presence. Run the lead master about 4-5 so it stays open. Run a boost on the front end, and dial my guitar's tone knob all the way back. Then adjust the 6600 to get the high end you want. I like this as an alternative to the typical Mark II/III settings.

 

[fretout]

Does anyone know of an audio sample of a + vs a ++?

Alright here's a power transformer question. From what I read in terms of value (but not necessarily player's preference), X101 > 105 > 100 > X62 > 00. Not sure where the 180W fits in there. Sound about right? Since Mesa is frugal sometimes you find parts where you didn't expect them.

I have a feeling that some of these chassis differences are splitting hairs, that they're all pretty epic.

I tried to look for some decent clips of the + vs. ++, but I couldn't find anything that really highlighted the differences between the amps.

As for where the 180W fits in the list, I'd put it at the very front! The power transformers that were used on the C+ Coliseums is the same power transformer that was used in the Mark III Coliseums, and in some of the Bass 400+ bass amplifiers! As for the Coliseum's tone, there is a big difference, but it's tough to describe the difference. The Colis have more bass, and sound deeper and thicker than the 101 or 105, but while still retaining the touch sensitivity of what the C+ is known for. One of my Colis has the "+ mod", and it feels smother than the normal voicing, but without losing any aggression.

 

[Dror520]

Thanks guys!

NewWorldMan, What's your master 1 setting when gigging/recording?
I know that some like to run master 1 higher, like 4-5 and then lower the lead master to like 2.5-4. But it seems both you guys like to set the lead master higher.
What's your take on that?

 

[NewWorldMan]

Thanks guys!

NewWorldMan, What's your master 1 setting when gigging/recording?
I know that some like to run master 1 higher, like 4-5 and then lower the lead master to like 2.5-4. But it seems both you guys like to set the lead master higher.
What's your take on that?

I consider my Lead Master of around 3.5 to be a fixed setting for me. That's the sweet spot for me in terms of tone, feel, etc. Then I just ride Master 1 to whatever volume I want.

It's been years since I gigged with a C+, as I'm usually using one of my Rectos, or a the Mark IV if I want Mark tone (simply because of the extra versatility). How high is it set? As high as it can go without the sound engineer complaining about my stage volume...

I can't really say how high it's universally set because the taper on the Master 1 is different on my amps. If I had to guess, I'd say around the 2 to 2.5 mark.

 

[psychodave]

That's pretty close to my settings as well. I don't have a pic handy, but I'm usually...

Volume 1: 8-9
Treble: 7
Mids: 4
Bass: 2
Lead Drive: 6-8 (depends on pickups and playing volume)
Lead Master: 3-4
Presence: 4-5

In general, my 2200 slider is probably just below the middle line and 6600 is almost right on it. 750 is roughly the same. My 240 is usually in about the same as Dave's, but my 80 is lower, around the middle between the top and middle lines.

This also hinges on whether I'm using all the pull switches. The "Pull Shift" on Treble and "Pull Deep" on Master 1 are always pulled. I never use the "Pull Shift" on Bass. I do use the "Pull Bright" on Volume 1 and Lead Master when the mood hits, which alters my settings as well.

I do the mids on 4 sometimes as well. It really thickens up the tone. You run the presence higher than I do, so I make up for it with the treble knob. Like you, I pull the lead master at times too, then tinker with the knobs a little

 

[GJgo]

The amp came with a nice set of tubes. The pre tubes are a combination I like, and more importantly the 6L6 are a GT branded Sylvania STR-415!

 

[Racerxrated]

Score!!^^^

 

[GJgo]

Alright guys, got to play the IIC for the first time tonight. Holy shit, this amp already has the best lead feel I've ever played, and it's not even a + yet! Having a JP-2C I didn't really know what to expect, but first impression they don't feel the same. I'll do a side by side later. Also it doesn't sound anything like my Mark III, it's way smoother & better harmonics. I'm starting to see the light.

It's super clean, from what my untrained eye can tell the only thing that's not original on it is the power cord. My plan is to have Mike do whatever it needs to make it right, give it a re-cap, and the + treatment.

Oh yeah, and it has the X101 transformer. Big sucker. Same dimensions as the one in my JP-2C, BTW, 3 7/8" deep. Deeper than a 105...