I still don't get these sellers...

[rstites]

Let's support big corporates that take our hard earned money man, yes.

They don't take anything if we choose not to use their services. They aren't taking anything you didn't agree to when you signed up to use their services. If you don't think they provide good service for their fees, then you should take your business elsewhere.

 

[9ball]

It's a buyers market if you haven't noticed genius..

maybe...but it's also thier equipment. if you want it - pay what they want or move along. i can list a used fork on reverb for 5 million dollars if i want to - it's my fork. if you dont like it go buy a used fork somewhere else if they're so easy to come by - since it's a buyers market lol

Lol, exactly.

I can understand people wanting protection when buying, so if you want protecion, YOU buy it. In a sense it is like car insurance, the buyer pays for it, not the seller.

We can argue all we want, there are pros and cons on each side.

The thing that frustrates me is we all get ripped off in the end, buyer and seller. We should all be able to sell our gear within ourselves and not being charged for it. Fuck, i can feel my money being pulled out of my pockets daily.

When will it stop

i've listed my 4x12 and my jvm for sale a few times over the last few years - on facebook groups. i got alot of people telling me i was an asshole or an idiot because i was asking too much - they "could get a new marshall cab for 300 dollars" or a "new marshall amp for way less" blah blah blah... it was kind of amazing lol....i wasn't even asking for unreasonable prices at all IMO. average. i'll just keep my stuff if that's the hassle i have to go through lol....i'll just be damn sure i never buy any more guitar gear unless i want to keep it forever lol...it's just a hobby

 

[rstites]

The thing that frustrates me is we all get ripped off in the end, buyer and seller. We should all be able to sell our gear within ourselves and not being charged for it. Fuck, i can feel my money being pulled out of my pockets daily.

Well, we didn't used to have this problem as all transactions were done locally in cash. You can still do this via craigslist. In fact, it's better than the old days, as then you frequently had to pay for an ad in the local paper and it'd take months to sell something. Craigslist is free, thought it still will probably take months. I bought and sold plenty this way in the early days.

Around here we get to advertise to the entire world for free. The problem is getting cash. In the US, it's still pretty easy to send a check which costs nothing. Now, it only takes a couple of days to clear, so that is an option. Money orders still exist and are far cheaper than paypal. There are alternatives, but exchanging money long distance is something that is going to require either some inherent risk for both buyer and seller and it's going to cost something to move the money. It always has cost something to send money. It's just that it's been something most of us haven't had to deal with.

Heck, if you want to cut out paypal, then what you really need is to make bank-to-bank transfers more common/easier in the US. It's done throughout most of the developed world. We have an archaic banking system. Hence, why we have to pay a third party to easily move money around. (It can be done, but we don't very often for various reasons.)

 

[7 Stringer]

Let's support big corporates that take our hard earned money man, yes.

They don't take anything if we choose not to use their services. They aren't taking anything you didn't agree to when you signed up to use their services. If you don't think they provide good service for their fees, then you should take your business elsewhere.

The thing is, it always comes to a point where you have no choice, it is THE norm. Ebay in the beggining was super fun and the fees where reasonnable, look at it now!!!

We gotta pay for everyrhing nowadays.

In the end they are making money off our back like crazy.

 

[7 Stringer]

Let's support big corporates that take our hard earned money man, yes.

They don't take anything if we choose not to use their services. They aren't taking anything you didn't agree to when you signed up to use their services. If you don't think they provide good service for their fees, then you should take your business elsewhere.

The thing is, it always comes to a point where you have no choice, it is THE norm. Ebay in the beggining was super fun and the fees where reasonnable, look at it now!!!

We gotta pay for everyrhing nowadays.

In the end they are making money off our back like crazy.

 

[7 Stringer]

The thing that frustrates me is we all get ripped off in the end, buyer and seller. We should all be able to sell our gear within ourselves and not being charged for it. Fuck, i can feel my money being pulled out of my pockets daily.

Well, we didn't used to have this problem as all transactions were done locally in cash. You can still do this via craigslist. In fact, it's better than the old days, as then you frequently had to pay for an ad in the local paper and it'd take months to sell something. Craigslist is free, thought it still will probably take months. I bought and sold plenty this way in the early days.

Around here we get to advertise to the entire world for free. The problem is getting cash. In the US, it's still pretty easy to send a check which costs nothing. Now, it only takes a couple of days to clear, so that is an option. Money orders still exist and are far cheaper than paypal. There are alternatives, but exchanging money long distance is something that is going to require either some inherent risk for both buyer and seller and it's going to cost something to move the money. It always has cost something to send money. It's just that it's been something most of us haven't had to deal with.

Heck, if you want to cut out paypal, then what you really need is to make bank-to-bank transfers more common/easier in the US. It's done throughout most of the developed world. We have an archaic banking system. Hence, why we have to pay a third party to easily move money around. (It can be done, but we don't very often for various reasons.)

You are damn right with this.

I still buy and sell a lot through Craigslist, or Kijiji here in Canada. And i still do money orders and bank transfers, but people want the money now and dont want the hassle anymore. Me, i dont mind at all, we save money in the end. And i have a pretty good sense of people, i usually ask to talk on the phone and get to know the guy a bit.

I didn't get burned for doing it in 25 years. Might be lucky though. But we have to follow the trend or we miss out on what we want.

 

[engage757]

Nope. Not happening with me. Paypal gives you 120 days to return something now, I'm not taking a guitar or amp back 3 months later when you are over it. I have WAY too many references, and I have had Paypal take the buyer's side when a guy said a guitar was "too light" and open a case 5 hours before he even received it and then refuse to return it for a month. I would rather not sell it than do that. We can go through reverb if you need, as at least then we can both speak to musicians and have some actual customer service, but I will not do the regular Paypal thing. No way.

 

[vultures]

I remember back in the day, when I had to snail-mail money orders...... Talk about trust...

Yup, those where the days. That was the way to build a reputation. Harmony Central was the main hub back then. Ha ha.

I remember mailing out 3 USPS Money orders for a Mark IV. They would only max out at $500, so I had to send three money orders for it. Crazy how much trust we put in people. I wouldn't ever mail someone a money order now-a-days.

 

[FourT6and2]

I mark up the price of my item by 3%. Then, if you want to pay with Gift, I'll give you a 3% discount. Happy? See how that works? That's exactly what stores do. If you pay with cash at a gas station they give you a cash discount. And everybody is ok with it. But if you worded it the other way around and say ok here's the price but if you use a card you pay a markup, everybody would throw a hissy fit like the OP. But in the end there is no difference.

 

[FourT6and2]

Also using PayPal gift is no more risky than a check or money order. And most people are fine with those forms of payment. Personally I hate PayPal and rather not use them due to the company's policy and politics regarding the firearm industry.

 

[maddnotez]

Also, expecting Paypal et al to get nothing for their service is unreasonable.

True. But a lot of these issues in the thread are because of the way PayPal is. Favoring buyer no matter what and allowing CC for gift payment for a potential chargeback there as well.

The seller is definitely at a disadvantage and honestly, thinking from a seller standpoint that's a big risk and maybe the norm should be sellers adding an extra 10%? That's why just being honest is beneficial for everyone, especially with the fellow forum gear nerds.

Regarding the quote. I agree, we are paying for a service but I would imagine that PayPal makes millions each year just from the interest on all of OUR money sitting in their accounts while they hold funds. Not to mention ad revenue or anything else.

 

[engage757]

What he said. ^

 

[FourT6and2]

Also, expecting Paypal et al to get nothing for their service is unreasonable.

True. But a lot of these issues in the thread are because of the way PayPal is. Favoring buyer no matter what and allowing CC for gift payment for a potential chargeback there as well.

The seller is definitely at a disadvantage and honestly, thinking from a seller standpoint that's a big risk and maybe the norm should be sellers adding an extra 10%? That's why just being honest is beneficial for everyone, especially with the fellow forum gear nerds.

Regarding the quote. I agree, we are paying for a service but I would imagine that PayPal makes millions each year just from the interest on all of OUR money sitting in their accounts while they hold funds. Not to mention ad revenue or anything else.

Yep. They definitely make money off the interest. Saying we should be paying PayPal for their service is like saying we should pay a bank for letting us have an account. The bank uses our money to issue loans and that's where they make their money. PayPal makes money by holding our money hostage before it is transferred to the recipient and the recipients bank. On top of that, they use our money to issue payments when others need it. Eternal the time it is requested and the time it processes at the end financial institution. Add the fees on top of that and they are coming out way ahead. PayPal also issues lines of credit which they profit from.

 

[FourT6and2]

Ooh also... they make money by ripping off currency conversions. I just bought something overseas and had to pay in Euros. But Paypals conversion didn't match the market rate. It was much higher and I'm not surprised if they're skimming from that as well.

 

[rstites]

I mark up the price of my item by 3%. Then, if you want to pay with Gift, I'll give you a 3% discount. Happy? See how that works? That's exactly what stores do. If you pay with cash at a gas station they give you a cash discount. And everybody is ok with it. But if you worded it the other way around and say ok here's the price but if you use a card you pay a markup, everybody would throw a hissy fit like the OP. But in the end there is no difference.

It isn't about people throwing a fit in the first case. It's illegal in the US to charge a customer for processing fees. However, it's not illegal to give them a discount for paying cash. That's why companies do that and get by with it, because if they did it otherwise they'd get in pretty serious trouble.

I suspect someone on here charging PP fees is equally as wrong, but as an individual nothing formal will ever happen. OTOH, charities and non-profits can have people pay those fees as a convenience/processing fee so they don't have to pay fees on money that isn't earnings for them. This why no company ever charges for credit cards and why schools, etc. can charge.

So yeah, there's actually a big difference and one we deal with day-to-day, which explains why people get more than a little annoyed about it. The bottom dollar might be the same, but the presentation is more than nothing. FWIW, I have no problem with how you do it. We do the same thing face-to-face for transactions all the time: cash always gets a discount.

 

[RedB4Black]

First, where do you think deposit interest have been for the last 8-9 years. Roughly 2-3 bps. Nobody is making anything holding cash in the bank. Even with recent rate increases, banks aren't raising rates. Second, if you keep a balance at paypal, you're not too smart. As soon as $ hits my paypal account, I transfer it out. Third, everyone who deals in FX makes money on the spread, paypal has to maintain funds in foreign currencies or pay for the exchange, of course they're going to take a fee on the spread. Fourth, yes paypal deserves to get paid for their services, much like a bank deserves to get paid to maintain your deposit account - providing those services costs money. You keeping a few thousand in a bank isn't really profitable to the bank, so why would you expect them to pay you much in interest or not assess a service charge.

If you don't like paypal's business practices, don't use them, it's that simple. Noone is forcing you.

 

[RedB4Black]

I mark up the price of my item by 3%. Then, if you want to pay with Gift, I'll give you a 3% discount. Happy? See how that works? That's exactly what stores do. If you pay with cash at a gas station they give you a cash discount. And everybody is ok with it. But if you worded it the other way around and say ok here's the price but if you use a card you pay a markup, everybody would throw a hissy fit like the OP. But in the end there is no difference.

It isn't about people throwing a fit in the first case. It's illegal in the US to charge a customer for processing fees. However, it's not illegal to give them a discount for paying cash. That's why companies do that and get by with it, because if they did it otherwise they'd get in pretty serious trouble.

I suspect someone on here charging PP fees is equally as wrong, but as an individual nothing formal will ever happen. OTOH, charities and non-profits can have people pay those fees as a convenience/processing fee so they don't have to pay fees on money that isn't earnings for them. This why no company ever charges for credit cards and why schools, etc. can charge.

So yeah, there's actually a big difference and one we deal with day-to-day, which explains why people get more than a little annoyed about it. The bottom dollar might be the same, but the presentation is more than nothing. FWIW, I have no problem with how you do it. We do the same thing face-to-face for transactions all the time: cash always gets a discount.

It's a terms of service agreement between Visa, MC, et al. and the vendor networks not to push on the 3% fee to the customer. Not something that is illegal.

 

[rstites]

Yep. They definitely make money off the interest. Saying we should be paying PayPal for their service is like saying we should pay a bank for letting us have an account. The bank uses our money to issue loans and that's where they make their money. PayPal makes money by holding our money hostage before it is transferred to the recipient and the recipients bank. On top of that, they use our money to issue payments when others need it. Eternal the time it is requested and the time it processes at the end financial institution. Add the fees on top of that and they are coming out way ahead. PayPal also issues lines of credit which they profit from.

It's true that they've shifted that way over time. Aren't they technically a bank at this point? Don't some people do actual banking through them?

However on the other, last time I checked PP offered services to sellers that were roughly on par with what credit cards charge for direct payment (for small timers) so it seemed perfectly in line and that's really what you're paying for - letting someone across the country run their card and send you money. It's not like we can't accept payment directly form cc from other services now, but they all cost about the same. Maybe those would be a better bet in regard to seller protection?

Yeah, cards, banks, paypal, all make money off holding onto other peoples money and earning interest off it. Many banks also charge fees for holding the money and then earn interest off it. It's a rip-off, but one that's agreed to when you sign up with that bank, so I see both sides there.....and it's not like it's hard to find banks that don't do that.

Yeah, PP, cards, etc. tend to be harsh on money conversions. When I travel abroad, I use specific cards that are known to offer good rates. You can probably do that via PP by running it through a card and having the card do the conversion: probably need the seller to put in US $ first (or have PP hit your local bank with it and let them convert it for you). Unfortunately, conversions are a murky area do to how they cross national boards/jurisdictions.

 

[rstites]

[It's a terms of service agreement between Visa, MC, et al. and the vendor networks not to push on the 3% fee to the customer. Not something that is illegal.

You're right. It violates contractual agreements. I don't know when that went into affect. I used to see separate prices on things in the 1990s. Those went away, but then later started seeing a lot of those same shops with standard prices and then 3% discounts for cash (and sometimes check - mail order places).

 

[FourT6and2]

I have NEVER paid a bank a single cent for having an account with them. Banks pay ME to let them use MY money. Yes, PayPal is essentially operating as a bank these days. But customers pay them to do so. Good for PayPal. Bad for everyone else. I try not to use them.

As far as how one parses it regarding cash discounts, telling customers they have to pay a markup if they use a card, while technically illegal, doesn't really stop stores from doing it. Their way around it is imposing minimum purchase prices. They are passing their credit processing fees on to the customer (which is exactly what anybody does when they tell people they have to pay an extra 3% for using PayPal). There is also a court case in progress about it because it restricts a business' first amendment right to advertise pricing as they see fit. Because there is no effective difference between marking one's prices up, then offering a cash discount; or saying one must pay more for using a card, the difference comes in how a business labels it. That's a 1st Amendment issue. And I think that's pretty interesting. Can't wait to see how that plays out.

https://reason.com/blog/2017/03/30/scot ... redit-card

Anyway, if I'm gonna get dinged for using PayPal, the buyer is gonna cover that for their own convenience and peace of mind. Not me. Otherwise, send me a check or something. I'm tired of losing money to shipping and PayPal and packing and fees and tax.