I wonder if I should scrap my stereo rig for W/D/W...

[petejt]

I'm currently running a stereo "wet/dry" rig with two amps through two cabs. It sounds fine for clean tones, well nearly everything...except for full on high gain distortion.

The amps are my Mesa/Boogie MarkIV and a 50 watt Marshall JCM 800.


I can get things to sound 'okay', but truly I am not 100% happy with it no matter what I do. Basically I prefer the high gain sound of the MarkIV. For everything else including clean tones the Marshall KICKS ARSE. I've tried cranking it up, using an attenuator, running it clean with a dirt pedal- I still miss not hearing the MarkIV's awesome seething crunch and have to dial down the level on the dirt pedal so that the Marshall sits back in the mix. I don't want to mod the JCM 800 either, or buy more dirt pedals.

The main reason I've been running stereo wet/dry is so I can run a subtle chorus effect behind my MarkIV's high gain sound, without it getting cluttered up or muddy or washy/soupy etc. No matter what chorus or flanger or harmoniser-type pedal I use, it still detracts from the girth and grunt of the MarkIV's core sound. I tried the effects loop and that sounds even worse.


I've been trying to maintain enthusiasm for a wet/dry stereo rig by running different modulation and delay effects in parallel for clean tones. But, honestly I have realised I am not that fussed with this stereo malarky. I can run my Deluxe Electric Mistress flanger in mono straight into an amp and cab and be floating above the moon- it sounds heavenly.

I feel like I've wasted money now because I bought a big stereo pedalboard switcher for my pedals. Now I am wondering if I really need it. Should I downsize to a mono board?

I do happen to have a stereo poweramp, and a stereo chorus/splitter rack unit. I know I can run the Slave Out from the MarkIV into the stereo chorus and split to the inputs of the stereo poweramp.

There's also the option of whether to run my other pedals in front of the MarkIV amp, or 'between' (ie after the Slave Out, but before the chorus/splitter to poweramp). Running them 'between' means I'll get a subtler, parallel effect (like the effected clean tones I get with my current stereo w/d setup). Mono will be more "full-on". I don't really want to trade them in for a rack effects unit, although that will be a tidier setup. I am though wondering if some of my pedals are now redundant.

I feel awkward too how I can incorporate the JCM 800 into the mix. A/B it with the MarkIV? A/B it with the effects loop so the preamp is bypassed? Wouldn't that be too cumbersome a setup? Would a "Marshall-in-a-box" dirt pedal suffice for the Marshall tones? Could I have R2 modified to a JCM 800-style circuit? I personally don't like too much excessiveness in my own guitar rig. I dunno...


I have actualy re-configured my cabs so they can act as "wet/dry/wet". I have two 4x12 cabs in X-pattern stereo. The inner two pairs of speakers form an inverted V shape (like this /\), so deliver the core dry tone. The outer opposite speaker pairs are the "left" and "right" wet channels. Effectively there's a 25:50:25 ratio of Left wet signal to Centre dry signal to Right wet signal.


Sorry for the ramble but what are your thoughts?

 

[reverymike]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'stereo w/d.' I'm going to assume you're running one cab dry and the other cab is a stereo cab with your effects. For a simple W/D rig, I would recommend NOT running stereo FX. Just run your wet cab with mono FX, and your dry cab, totally dry.

If you decide to move to a W/D/W rig, then, go ahead and run your effects in stereo with your Right and Left cabinets.

I run a basic W/D rig, with the amp pushing a dry 4x12, and then a line out of the amp into a Roland SDE3000 or Chandler Echo for delay, and sometimes a little chorus or pitch added in as well. My wet cab still has some dry signal as well. I run a Racksystems pedalboard in front of my amp with a few effects as well, which end up going to both cabs (octave, wah, chorus, phase, flange) only my delay and pitch/chorus are in the "wet" cab.

This set up works great with both clean, mid gain, and high gain tones.

 

[Kapo_Polenton]

+ 1 - I also run a wet/dry. dry 4 x 12, wet 1 x 12. The 1 x 12 has no problem keeping up and the sound fills out nicely. My setup is fairly standard

guitar- pedals OD/flange/phase/WAH - amp -hotplate - dry cab

line out of hotplate - GmajorII (echoplex setting, bit of verb)-EHX 44 magnum pedal - wet 1 x 12

Sounds pretty good to my ears! Simpler is often the way to go.

I think the issue you are having is clearly between the sonic differences in the distortion. The nice thing with wet/dry is that the preamp distortion of the main amp is used for both the wet and dry so there is no sonic clashing.Maybe an ABY amp switcher if you like both amos for diff things? Then you need to figure out how you can get effects to both.

 

[Zachman]

I'm currently running a stereo "wet/dry" rig with two amps through two cabs. It sounds fine for clean tones, well nearly everything...except for full on high gain distortion.

The amps are my Mesa/Boogie MarkIV and a 50 watt Marshall JCM 800.


I can get things to sound 'okay', but truly I am not 100% happy with it no matter what I do. Basically I prefer the high gain sound of the MarkIV. For everything else including clean tones the Marshall KICKS ARSE. I've tried cranking it up, using an attenuator, running it clean with a dirt pedal- I still miss not hearing the MarkIV's awesome seething crunch and have to dial down the level on the dirt pedal so that the Marshall sits back in the mix. I don't want to mod the JCM 800 either, or buy more dirt pedals.

The main reason I've been running stereo wet/dry is so I can run a subtle chorus effect behind my MarkIV's high gain sound, without it getting cluttered up or muddy or washy/soupy etc. No matter what chorus or flanger or harmoniser-type pedal I use, it still detracts from the girth and grunt of the MarkIV's core sound. I tried the effects loop and that sounds even worse.


I've been trying to maintain enthusiasm for a wet/dry stereo rig by running different modulation and delay effects in parallel for clean tones. But, honestly I have realised I am not that fussed with this stereo malarky. I can run my Deluxe Electric Mistress flanger in mono straight into an amp and cab and be floating above the moon- it sounds heavenly.

I feel like I've wasted money now because I bought a big stereo pedalboard switcher for my pedals. Now I am wondering if I really need it. Should I downsize to a mono board?

I do happen to have a stereo poweramp, and a stereo chorus/splitter rack unit. I know I can run the Slave Out from the MarkIV into the stereo chorus and split to the inputs of the stereo poweramp.

There's also the option of whether to run my other pedals in front of the MarkIV amp, or 'between' (ie after the Slave Out, but before the chorus/splitter to poweramp). Running them 'between' means I'll get a subtler, parallel effect (like the effected clean tones I get with my current stereo w/d setup). Mono will be more "full-on". I don't really want to trade them in for a rack effects unit, although that will be a tidier setup. I am though wondering if some of my pedals are now redundant.

I feel awkward too how I can incorporate the JCM 800 into the mix. A/B it with the MarkIV? A/B it with the effects loop so the preamp is bypassed? Wouldn't that be too cumbersome a setup? Would a "Marshall-in-a-box" dirt pedal suffice for the Marshall tones? Could I have R2 modified to a JCM 800-style circuit? I personally don't like too much excessiveness in my own guitar rig. I dunno...


I have actualy re-configured my cabs so they can act as "wet/dry/wet". I have two 4x12 cabs in X-pattern stereo. The inner two pairs of speakers form an inverted V shape (like this /\), so deliver the core dry tone. The outer opposite speaker pairs are the "left" and "right" wet channels. Effectively there's a 25:50:25 ratio of Left wet signal to Centre dry signal to Right wet signal.


Sorry for the ramble but what are your thoughts?

My Thoughts:

Looks like you're running a dual mono setup, not a stereo setup.

Seems to me like, you need to decide what you want/need, and why. (Rig's use: hobby fun, live gigs/recording)

* Do you want to be able to use both amps for different selectable "Core" tones, and be able to share your effects between both amps, in stereo, or w/d/w, or Dual mono like you are now?

* Are you wanting to Slave the Boogie and Marshall and utilize your effects through your stereo power amp, and run a stereo rig?

Looks to me like you are where I was years ago, trying to figure out how to get the best compromise. I discovered that whenever I compromised, I ALWAYS inevitably reached that point w/ my rigs that I found the weakness in them, and was left redesigning the rig again, and again. I wasn't satisfied until I realized that I was too particular-- to be satisfied w/ a watered down compromise version of anything, so I embraced the challenge of a no compromise approach. Couldn't be happier, now.

 

[petejt]

Thanks everyone for your responses. I'll reply to each in turn. This is a big help- thanks again.

 

[petejt]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'stereo w/d.' I'm going to assume you're running one cab dry and the other cab is a stereo cab with your effects. For a simple W/D rig, I would recommend NOT running stereo FX. Just run your wet cab with mono FX, and your dry cab, totally dry.

If you decide to move to a W/D/W rig, then, go ahead and run your effects in stereo with your Right and Left cabinets.

I run a basic W/D rig, with the amp pushing a dry 4x12, and then a line out of the amp into a Roland SDE3000 or Chandler Echo for delay, and sometimes a little chorus or pitch added in as well. My wet cab still has some dry signal as well. I run a Racksystems pedalboard in front of my amp with a few effects as well, which end up going to both cabs (octave, wah, chorus, phase, flange) only my delay and pitch/chorus are in the "wet" cab.

This set up works great with both clean, mid gain, and high gain tones.

I guess I am confusing the terms.


By the looks of it, it's a wet/dry rig.

Signal runs mono through a fuzz, wah-wah, EQ, and flanger. Then is split by a chorus pedal. The 'dry' output goes straight to the MarkIV. The wet output goes through more pedals (phaser, Neunaber Chroma 'pitch-offsetter', dirt pedal, delay) to the Marshall.

MarkIV handles the 'dry' signal, the Marshall handles the wet signal.

What makes it 'stereo' are the cabs: Both 4x12 cabs are stereo, in an X-pattern. When the cabs sit next to each other they form a double cross XX. The MarkIV runs through the "inner" pairs, the Marshall runs through the "outer" pairs.

Here's a diagram, I hope it makes sense.

When I'm running the chorus for the dirty stuff, I use the Neunaber Chroma, so only the Marshall "sees" it. It probably works the best with dirt but still I am fussy about the sound.


I have checked and all the speakers are in phase. My pedalboard switcher has a phase switch to correct that.

 

[petejt]

+ 1 - I also run a wet/dry. dry 4 x 12, wet 1 x 12. The 1 x 12 has no problem keeping up and the sound fills out nicely. My setup is fairly standard

guitar- pedals OD/flange/phase/WAH - amp -hotplate - dry cab

line out of hotplate - GmajorII (echoplex setting, bit of verb)-EHX 44 magnum pedal - wet 1 x 12

Sounds pretty good to my ears! Simpler is often the way to go.

I think the issue you are having is clearly between the sonic differences in the distortion. The nice thing with wet/dry is that the preamp distortion of the main amp is used for both the wet and dry so there is no sonic clashing.Maybe an ABY amp switcher if you like both amos for diff things? Then you need to figure out how you can get effects to both.

Sonic clashing- yeah that is it I think. It's a pity because I love the sound of each amp but when together for dirt I guess I just don't...
And as I said above they are definitely in phase, I got that fixed.

I guess I could do the A/B thing. I have a GCX switcher so that's easily taken care of. But I wouldn't be able to run both at the same time. Yet I guess it doesn't really matter then hey?

 

[petejt]

My Thoughts:

Looks like you're running a dual mono setup, not a stereo setup.

Seems to me like, you need to decide what you want/need, and why. (Rig's use: hobby fun, live gigs/recording)

* Do you want to be able to use both amps for different selectable "Core" tones, and be able to share your effects between both amps, in stereo, or w/d/w, or Dual mono like you are now?

* Are you wanting to Slave the Boogie and Marshall and utilize your effects through your stereo power amp, and run a stereo rig?

Looks to me like you are where I was years ago, trying to figure out how to get the best compromise. I discovered that whenever I compromised, I ALWAYS inevitably reached that point w/ my rigs that I found the weakness in them, and was left redesigning the rig again, and again. I wasn't satisfied until I realized that I was too particular-- to be satisfied w/ a watered down compromise version of anything, so I embraced the challenge of a no compromise approach. Couldn't be happier, now.

Hey Zach,

My rig has basically become a home studio rig, pathetically! It seems so silly to me that I've amassed all this stuff and yet when I do the occasional gig I just throw the Roland Jazz Chorus combo amp with a dirt pedal into the car, plug in my guitar and it works fine!

But mostly for me music is a hobby. I love playing at home, jamming with friends, and recording (although haven't recorded for more than a year now). I have all this extra stuff so I can create my ultimate sounds, and also for that "one day I might hit the big stage". I also have a vision of having a small recording studio for local musicians and school students to rehearse, practice, record, and jam in. And also that they can lease my equipment for recording or a backline at local gigs. So I don't really want to sell off any stuff.


You bring up some good questions.


Pity they are hard to answer haha!


I guess: Run the Boogie w/d/w (and just 'bypass' the effects box), with the Marshall in its effects loop (via Hotplate) as a kind of A/B switch configuration. I guess I'll keep the pedals in front of the amp, maybe...I dunno you see this is where it gets complicated...



EDIT: Coming back to the sonic clashing & idea of using two amps at once- I got the idea from a few different musicians (including Dann Huff 6:10-9:29) to add depth & beef up processed ("kahonies") guitar sounds by using a dry sound that is very raw but fairly 'clean'.

But I guess I've been doing it wrong. I've used my Marshall for the 'cleaner' raw tone (the dirt pedal just crunches it a bit), but I've been processing THAT signal rather than the highly distorted Boogie sound.

BUT: I want the distorted Boogie sound to be the CORE sound! Arrggghh the confusion.......

 

[Zachman]

My Thoughts:

Looks like you're running a dual mono setup, not a stereo setup.

Seems to me like, you need to decide what you want/need, and why. (Rig's use: hobby fun, live gigs/recording)

* Do you want to be able to use both amps for different selectable "Core" tones, and be able to share your effects between both amps, in stereo, or w/d/w, or Dual mono like you are now?

* Are you wanting to Slave the Boogie and Marshall and utilize your effects through your stereo power amp, and run a stereo rig?

Looks to me like you are where I was years ago, trying to figure out how to get the best compromise. I discovered that whenever I compromised, I ALWAYS inevitably reached that point w/ my rigs that I found the weakness in them, and was left redesigning the rig again, and again. I wasn't satisfied until I realized that I was too particular-- to be satisfied w/ a watered down compromise version of anything, so I embraced the challenge of a no compromise approach. Couldn't be happier, now.

Hey Zach,

My rig has basically become a home studio rig, pathetically! It seems so silly to me that I've amassed all this stuff and yet when I do the occasional gig I just throw the Roland Jazz Chorus combo amp with a dirt pedal into the car, plug in my guitar and it works fine!

But mostly for me music is a hobby. I love playing at home, jamming with friends, and recording (although haven't recorded for more than a year now). I have all this extra stuff so I can create my ultimate sounds, and also for that "one day I might hit the big stage". I also have a vision of having a small recording studio for local musicians and school students to rehearse, practice, record, and jam in. And also that they can lease my equipment for recording or a backline at local gigs. So I don't really want to sell off any stuff.


You bring up some good questions.


Pity they are hard to answer haha!


I guess: Run the Boogie w/d/w (and just 'bypass' the effects box), with the Marshall in its effects loop (via Hotplate) as a kind of A/B switch configuration. I guess I'll keep the pedals in front of the amp, maybe...I dunno you see this is where it gets complicated...

Oh yes... You're preaching to the choir on how things can get complicated, and costly VERY quickly-- especially when you start adding more amps to the design of the rig, and you want to share effects between them.

My solution was to figure out the basic core amp sounds I wanted, then-- effects makes/models preferred, routing needs, and real time control/access.

* Required the CAE, Skrydstrup, or Egnater amp switcher. I went w/ the CAE V.1 (4 Amps- currently, one at a time, hooked up simultaneously)
* Switching System (Switches 22 loop functions)
* Line Mixer
* MIDI Foot Controller

Then the outboard gear: Pedals, and rack effects.

I chose to have the routing setup so I have ALL of the pedals in front of whichever amp is selected, via the switching system and amp selector. I look at this as the Dry section of the rig.

Next are the rack processors: these are fed "Post" amp (No amp effects loops used), via the Amp selector/Switching System, and fed to the Stereo Power Amp (The wet side of the rig-- which I can also feed the Dry amp sound to).

As I too, like and often use a simple dry amp sound, I designed the rig so that I can run it:

Mono-- Middle dry "ONLY" (Just like plugging your guitar into a mono amp), w/ the ability to turn on/off the pedals as desired, or via pre-programmed combinations, via MIDI.

D/D/D-- Same as above but w/ the dry signal also running through the wet side of the rig.

Dual Mono-- Wet/Dry

WD/D/WD

Stereo-- Middle Dry cab eliminated via Hotplate set to "load"

Stereo-- WD/WD

Just because I have tons of stuff, I definitely don't use it ALL all the time.

Like you, for jams w/ friends or little gigs, I use smaller gear-- but when it's uncompromised wow I am after, I haven't found a better way (for me) to achieve it, than w/ my current rig.

There are 3 con sides, for me:

Big
Heavy
Expensive

The Pros out weigh the Cons, to me, because the uncompromising tones of the selected gear and the means to control it all are too fun to ignore.

Updated Living Room pic: LOL

 

[petejt]

Will reply to your reply soon Zach, just wanna shout EUREKA!

I went back to the drawing board...actually the spooky 'dungeon' downstairs where my guitar rig lives...and tried a few things.

My solution is to have both the Marshall & Boogie AND a wet/dry/dry/wet system.
The pedals and wet/dry split to both amps stays as described above.

But what I've done new is connect the Slave Out of the Boogie to a stereo chorus/splitter, and connect its outputs to the stereo poweramp. The stereo poweramp's outputs go to the "outer" speaker pairs of the 4x12 cabs.
The Boogie 'dry' signal speaker output is connected to the M/B cab's 'inner' speaker pair.
The Marshall's speaker output is connected to the Marshall cab's inner speaker pair.

So while there is w/d/d/w, effectively there's three parts Mesa/Boogie to one part Marshall. I can blend the amount of wet Boogie signal with the stereo poweramp output controls as well as presence controls. For cleaner stuff etc. the Marshall is quite present despite having the lower part of the ratio, but for the heavy distortion stuff it sits back just a little bit. In fact the way it blends with the wet Boogie signal, creates a particular sound that meshes yet differentiates nicely compared to the M/B cab, in effect enhancing the stereo image.


Crappy smartphone pic below- just shows the amps and cabs, with the stereo poweramp and Rockman Stereo Chorus/Delay added.