If You Can't Buy One, Build One - "CCV" style

[hopkinWFG]

Any chance of posting the clip on youtube please

 

[BSRIAudio]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you use a 5% tolerance on a 100k resistor, you could potentially get a 95k resistor or a 105k resistor. The difference could be 10k just on that one part between two different amps. Work that across dozens of resistors, capacitors, potentiometers, transformers and things can vary. In my original post, I never said amps will be completely different, I said slightly. This is where, IMO, Mark shines to make amps sound good to him.

Notice you didn't say amps would sound EXACTLY the same.

People misunderstand electronic component tolerances this way all the time. Tolerance sets a standard that allows for variation while still being in spec. But that doesn't mean the parts will be inconsistent. Resistors coming off the line for a set value aren't going to have a +/- 5% swing from part to part as you pull them off the tape. Its more like all the 100K resistors for 1000 pieces are going to measure 100.8K. And across those 1000 pieces you might see an overall fraction of a percentage swing. So the idea of subbing parts after the amp is finished because of tolerances would be completely insane. You would pull the traces off the board in the process of pulling parts, measuring, and replacing. If that kind of attention to consistency was important you would be much wiser to measure every single part before installing and putting together your bins of guaranteed parts. When you pick the idea apart it makes it pretty unrealistic that tweaking each amp on a per-part level is the reason the amps aren't being made. There is some other reason that isn't as full of fairy dust as "oh he just has to make each amp perfect."

I didnt misunderstand anything. It is 100% possible to have a part with a 5% tolerance to swing 5% in either direction. Does it happen all the time, no, but it could. I typically measure parts before using them just to make sure I know what I’m using. I leave nothing to chance. Of course I’m not building production amps. Just modding amps.

Im talking in the context of building production amps as was being discussed. If you're building amps in production you're not getting one 100k resistor from here and another from there and the third one from another place. They're coming off a tape reel or out of a bag from the same lot. The variance between those resistors made sequentially in a production run is not the full range of the tolerance from part to part. They will be consistent within the tolerance. Im pointing out that the idea of building an amp, and then replacing parts in it because of part-to-part tolerances is not necessary of you're building in production. If dude wasn't using the same parts between amps that is a perplexing detail in a story about being obsessed with consistency.

 

[scottosan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you use a 5% tolerance on a 100k resistor, you could potentially get a 95k resistor or a 105k resistor. The difference could be 10k just on that one part between two different amps. Work that across dozens of resistors, capacitors, potentiometers, transformers and things can vary. In my original post, I never said amps will be completely different, I said slightly. This is where, IMO, Mark shines to make amps sound good to him.

Notice you didn't say amps would sound EXACTLY the same.

People misunderstand electronic component tolerances this way all the time. Tolerance sets a standard that allows for variation while still being in spec. But that doesn't mean the parts will be inconsistent. Resistors coming off the line for a set value aren't going to have a +/- 5% swing from part to part as you pull them off the tape. Its more like all the 100K resistors for 1000 pieces are going to measure 100.8K. And across those 1000 pieces you might see an overall fraction of a percentage swing. So the idea of subbing parts after the amp is finished because of tolerances would be completely insane. You would pull the traces off the board in the process of pulling parts, measuring, and replacing. If that kind of attention to consistency was important you would be much wiser to measure every single part before installing and putting together your bins of guaranteed parts. When you pick the idea apart it makes it pretty unrealistic that tweaking each amp on a per-part level is the reason the amps aren't being made. There is some other reason that isn't as full of fairy dust as "oh he just has to make each amp perfect."

Agreed that per part is a stretch, but per batch is more realistic. If recall looking at some tests where polyester caps were compared to polypropylene and their characteristic changes in response to heat. Regardless of manufacturer, the polyester drifted constantly on one direction and polypropylene in the other. To your point, last night I have a lot of Xicon 4.7k resistors @ 5% tolerance. of the 20 tested, they ranged from 4.63k to 4.65k on my meter yet most were 4.63K. If I were to try a different manufacturer, they may be 4.72k -4.74K. One of the other reasons I like the WIMAs are they seem to have more consistent tolerances and remain in spec form what I have experienced. I always buy the 5%.

Modding amplifiers is one thing as you are dealt with what Marshall felt like using that day, which could change the following week. Or one amp used a 5k presence vs another with the 25k/4.7K. Mark is going to listed and take things into consideration and know how to compensate vs. some hack that is going to just do a connect the dot mod that he copied verbatim. Getting back to production units, if you get a firm Bill of Materials or easily and consistently sourceable parts and design around those parts, the variance in the tone and feel of the amps should be minimal at this point.

 

[BSRIAudio]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you use a 5% tolerance on a 100k resistor, you could potentially get a 95k resistor or a 105k resistor. The difference could be 10k just on that one part between two different amps. Work that across dozens of resistors, capacitors, potentiometers, transformers and things can vary. In my original post, I never said amps will be completely different, I said slightly. This is where, IMO, Mark shines to make amps sound good to him.

Notice you didn't say amps would sound EXACTLY the same.

People misunderstand electronic component tolerances this way all the time. Tolerance sets a standard that allows for variation while still being in spec. But that doesn't mean the parts will be inconsistent. Resistors coming off the line for a set value aren't going to have a +/- 5% swing from part to part as you pull them off the tape. Its more like all the 100K resistors for 1000 pieces are going to measure 100.8K. And across those 1000 pieces you might see an overall fraction of a percentage swing. So the idea of subbing parts after the amp is finished because of tolerances would be completely insane. You would pull the traces off the board in the process of pulling parts, measuring, and replacing. If that kind of attention to consistency was important you would be much wiser to measure every single part before installing and putting together your bins of guaranteed parts. When you pick the idea apart it makes it pretty unrealistic that tweaking each amp on a per-part level is the reason the amps aren't being made. There is some other reason that isn't as full of fairy dust as "oh he just has to make each amp perfect."

Agreed that per part is a stretch, but per batch is more realistic. If recall looking at some tests where polyester caps were compared to polypropylene and their characteristic changes in response to heat. Regardless of manufacturer, the polyester drifted constantly on one direction and polypropylene in the other. To your point, last night I have a lot of Xicon 4.7k resistors @ 5% tolerance. of the 20 tested, they ranged from 4.63k to 4.65k on my meter yet most were 4.63K. If I were to try a different manufacturer, they may be 4.72k -4.74K. One of the other reasons I like the WIMAs are they seem to have more consistent tolerances and remain in spec form what I have experienced. I always buy the 5%.

Modding amplifiers is one thing as you are dealt with what Marshall felt like using that day, which could change the following week. Or one amp used a 5k presence vs another with the 25k/4.7K. Mark is going to listed and take things into consideration and know how to compensate vs. some hack that is going to just do a connect the dot mod that he copied verbatim. Getting back to production units, if you get a firm Bill of Materials or easily and consistently sourceable parts and design around those parts, the variance in the tone and feel of the amps should be minimal at this point.

At this point in my building/playing/money wasting career I embrace the idea of slight differences rather than seeing it as wrong or less good. Its impossible to have a control group for this stuff because we don't sling riffs in a lab. Different rooms, guitars, pedals, humidity, etc... all change tone as much as a resistor could over a tolerance of much more than 5%. And that's not even getting into the biological mechanics of hearing that change day to day and our brain just evens out the differences.

If you have a master blueprint amplifier to compare to perhaps you could determine if amps in one batch were behaving differently but the cost/benefit of ripping apart those amps over minor differences is probably pretty marginal.

 

[scottosan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you use a 5% tolerance on a 100k resistor, you could potentially get a 95k resistor or a 105k resistor. The difference could be 10k just on that one part between two different amps. Work that across dozens of resistors, capacitors, potentiometers, transformers and things can vary. In my original post, I never said amps will be completely different, I said slightly. This is where, IMO, Mark shines to make amps sound good to him.

Notice you didn't say amps would sound EXACTLY the same.

People misunderstand electronic component tolerances this way all the time. Tolerance sets a standard that allows for variation while still being in spec. But that doesn't mean the parts will be inconsistent. Resistors coming off the line for a set value aren't going to have a +/- 5% swing from part to part as you pull them off the tape. Its more like all the 100K resistors for 1000 pieces are going to measure 100.8K. And across those 1000 pieces you might see an overall fraction of a percentage swing. So the idea of subbing parts after the amp is finished because of tolerances would be completely insane. You would pull the traces off the board in the process of pulling parts, measuring, and replacing. If that kind of attention to consistency was important you would be much wiser to measure every single part before installing and putting together your bins of guaranteed parts. When you pick the idea apart it makes it pretty unrealistic that tweaking each amp on a per-part level is the reason the amps aren't being made. There is some other reason that isn't as full of fairy dust as "oh he just has to make each amp perfect."

Agreed that per part is a stretch, but per batch is more realistic. If recall looking at some tests where polyester caps were compared to polypropylene and their characteristic changes in response to heat. Regardless of manufacturer, the polyester drifted constantly on one direction and polypropylene in the other. To your point, last night I have a lot of Xicon 4.7k resistors @ 5% tolerance. of the 20 tested, they ranged from 4.63k to 4.65k on my meter yet most were 4.63K. If I were to try a different manufacturer, they may be 4.72k -4.74K. One of the other reasons I like the WIMAs are they seem to have more consistent tolerances and remain in spec form what I have experienced. I always buy the 5%.

Modding amplifiers is one thing as you are dealt with what Marshall felt like using that day, which could change the following week. Or one amp used a 5k presence vs another with the 25k/4.7K. Mark is going to listed and take things into consideration and know how to compensate vs. some hack that is going to just do a connect the dot mod that he copied verbatim. Getting back to production units, if you get a firm Bill of Materials or easily and consistently sourceable parts and design around those parts, the variance in the tone and feel of the amps should be minimal at this point.

At this point in my building/playing/money wasting career I embrace the idea of slight differences rather than seeing it as wrong or less good. Its impossible to have a control group for this stuff because we don't sling riffs in a lab. Different rooms, guitars, pedals, humidity, etc... all change tone as much as a resistor could over a tolerance of much more than 5%. And that's not even getting into the biological mechanics of hearing that change day to day and our brain just evens out the differences.

If you have a master blueprint amplifier to compare to perhaps you could determine if amps in one batch were behaving differently but the cost/benefit of ripping apart those amps over minor differences is probably pretty marginal.

for the most part choice in parts comes down to personal preference with a fair amount of phsycoaucoutics involved. If you used brand "A" caps in a new build by chance and hade a stale sounding transformer, in your mind you may write off the. New caps as sounding stale. Or for example, I believe the new Sozo NextGen are really just a complete different capacitor from a completely different manufacturer than the originals due to some fall out between John and the original makers. Yet the hype carried over to the completely different caps

 

[FourT6and2]

Delicious!

Nice job

 

[Anonymous]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you use a 5% tolerance on a 100k resistor, you could potentially get a 95k resistor or a 105k resistor. The difference could be 10k just on that one part between two different amps. Work that across dozens of resistors, capacitors, potentiometers, transformers and things can vary. In my original post, I never said amps will be completely different, I said slightly. This is where, IMO, Mark shines to make amps sound good to him.

Notice you didn't say amps would sound EXACTLY the same.

People misunderstand electronic component tolerances this way all the time. Tolerance sets a standard that allows for variation while still being in spec. But that doesn't mean the parts will be inconsistent. Resistors coming off the line for a set value aren't going to have a +/- 5% swing from part to part as you pull them off the tape. Its more like all the 100K resistors for 1000 pieces are going to measure 100.8K. And across those 1000 pieces you might see an overall fraction of a percentage swing. So the idea of subbing parts after the amp is finished because of tolerances would be completely insane. You would pull the traces off the board in the process of pulling parts, measuring, and replacing. If that kind of attention to consistency was important you would be much wiser to measure every single part before installing and putting together your bins of guaranteed parts. When you pick the idea apart it makes it pretty unrealistic that tweaking each amp on a per-part level is the reason the amps aren't being made. There is some other reason that isn't as full of fairy dust as "oh he just has to make each amp perfect."

Agreed that per part is a stretch, but per batch is more realistic. If recall looking at some tests where polyester caps were compared to polypropylene and their characteristic changes in response to heat. Regardless of manufacturer, the polyester drifted constantly on one direction and polypropylene in the other. To your point, last night I have a lot of Xicon 4.7k resistors @ 5% tolerance. of the 20 tested, they ranged from 4.63k to 4.65k on my meter yet most were 4.63K. If I were to try a different manufacturer, they may be 4.72k -4.74K. One of the other reasons I like the WIMAs are they seem to have more consistent tolerances and remain in spec form what I have experienced. I always buy the 5%.

Modding amplifiers is one thing as you are dealt with what Marshall felt like using that day, which could change the following week. Or one amp used a 5k presence vs another with the 25k/4.7K. Mark is going to listed and take things into consideration and know how to compensate vs. some hack that is going to just do a connect the dot mod that he copied verbatim. Getting back to production units, if you get a firm Bill of Materials or easily and consistently sourceable parts and design around those parts, the variance in the tone and feel of the amps should be minimal at this point.

At this point in my building/playing/money wasting career I embrace the idea of slight differences rather than seeing it as wrong or less good. Its impossible to have a control group for this stuff because we don't sling riffs in a lab. Different rooms, guitars, pedals, humidity, etc... all change tone as much as a resistor could over a tolerance of much more than 5%. And that's not even getting into the biological mechanics of hearing that change day to day and our brain just evens out the differences.

If you have a master blueprint amplifier to compare to perhaps you could determine if amps in one batch were behaving differently but the cost/benefit of ripping apart those amps over minor differences is probably pretty marginal.

for the most part choice in parts comes down to personal preference with a fair amount of phsycoaucoutics involved. If you used brand "A" caps in a new build by chance and hade a stale sounding transformer, in your mind you may write off the. New caps as sounding stale. Or for example, I believe the new Sozo NextGen are really just a complete different capacitor from a completely different manufacturer than the originals due to some fall out between John and the original makers. Yet the hype carried over to the completely different caps

Bruce Egnater is an interesting guy to talk to about this whole component choice issue and how much it matters...

Steve

 

[scottosan]

I just got my Ruby EL34BHT's in and I am so thankful for the 10 cent 1 ohm resistors. These things draw a tone of current . I went to go bias them and with 3 seconds, my multimeter looked like is was hitting warp speed and then..............fireworks. The 1ohm resistor is now deceased. fortunately I hit the standby right at about the same time that it went. Had to adjust my bias drop resistor to allow more -DCv, replaced the 1 ohm resistor and I'm in business. The tube survived. It's running about 530v in high mode and 460 in low mode. I like the cleans better in high mode and gains better in low. Will probably keep it in low just to preserve tube life. Gosh dang, this thing has a grind and complexity that I cannot capture on the phone cam.

 

[CrazyNutz]

Wow! did it not pop HV fuse?

I'm with you, I'm not a fan of really high voltage in the power section. 430 to 480 depending on the amp is where I like to be.

 

[SpiderWars]

Interesting that you like the lower voltage. I'd always heard that dude liked the higher voltages and some attribute some of the magic to that. But if it sounds stellar and still has that Cameron feel at 460v then that's all the better.

How many watts was the 1ohm?

 

[scottosan]

Interesting that you like the lower voltage. I'd always heard that dude liked the higher voltages and some attribute some of the magic to that. But if it sounds stellar and still has that Cameron feel at 460v then that's all the better.

How many watts was the 1ohm?

The resistor was 1/2 watt which is what is ideal for that very reason. Just more protection. I also swapped the 4A HT fuse when I put in a new 1 ohm resistor. It was really more my fault and had nothing to do with the voltage. I started with a pretty broad useable sweep for flexibility until I figured what I needed. As you know, the more higher the -DC bias voltage the lower the amount of current the tube will use. My intention was to increase the bias voltage all of the way so the tube is cold biased at start. I had it cranked the other way. So within a few seconds the tube hit 80ma+ before I caught what going on, then pooooff... now that I know the range needed to accommodate both voltages I am going to narrow the sweeps and and document my findings. Basically I need to switch in a 6.1k dropping resistor when before the diode when going into low mode. This is putting me within 1 watt dissipation difference between modes.

 

[scottosan]

Interesting that you like the lower voltage. I'd always heard that dude liked the higher voltages and some attribute some of the magic to that. But if it sounds stellar and still has that Cameron feel at 460v then that's all the better.

How many watts was the 1ohm?

i think psychodave prefers low power mode as well

 

[JerEvil]

holy shit sounds great! Very nice job on that, build me one lol!

thanks guys. The more I play this the more redicilously flexible I am finding the amp to be. I need to get some proper clips with better playing.

Man I wish I lived in TX! I'd love to make vids of both your amps! LOL! This does sound killer.

 

[CrazyNutz]

I also swapped the 4A HT fuse when I put in a new 1 ohm resistor.

4A fuse is way too high for HT. You should be using a 1A at most.

 

[scottosan]

I also swapped the 4A HT fuse when I put in a new 1 ohm resistor.

4A fuse is way too high for HT. You should be using a 1A at most.

sorry meant Mains went. I am using 4A Mains and 1A HT

 

[CrazyNutz]

sorry meant Mains went. I am using 4A Mains and 1A HT

Haha, ok thats more like it

 

[scottosan]

Any chance of posting the clip on youtube please

Which clip are you referring to? I have only posted 2, both on youtube and linked here

 

[CrazyNutz]

Scott allowed me the honors of playing this amp, and wow what a treat. My neighbors hate me just a little more today

My first time experiencing a CCV style amp, this one being true to the originals as far as the research tells us. It's the kind of amp that will blow your mind, put a smile on your face, and leave you lusting for more. Creamy fat singing leads, tight chords with a rich grind, amazing thump, and cutting mids, what more could you ask for? Oh wait there's more, a clean channel that does fendery clean, to fat plexi breakup, all the way to cranked plexi.

Very versatile, and addicting to play. You have to play this amp cranked in person, to fully appreciate it, the videos sound good but honestly do not do it justice.

Thanks again Scott

 

[sjk]

Scott allowed me the honors of playing this amp, and wow what a treat. My neighbors hate me just a little more today

My fist time experiencing a CCV style amp, this one being true to the originals as far as the research tells us. It's the kind of amp that will blow your mind, put a smile on your face, and leave you lusting for more. Creamy fat singing leads, tight chords with a rich grind, amazing thump, and cutting mids, what more could you ask for? Oh wait there's more, a clean channel the does fendery clean, to fat plexi breakup, all the way to cranked plexi.

Very versatile, and addicting to play. You have to play this amp cranked in person, to fully appreciate it, the videos sound good but honestly do not do it justice.

Thanks again Scott

I can imagine, although I think Scott's clips sound awesome, surprised this thread died!

 

[scottosan]

Scott allowed me the honors of playing this amp, and wow what a treat. My neighbors hate me just a little more today

My first time experiencing a CCV style amp, this one being true to the originals as far as the research tells us. It's the kind of amp that will blow your mind, put a smile on your face, and leave you lusting for more. Creamy fat singing leads, tight chords with a rich grind, amazing thump, and cutting mids, what more could you ask for? Oh wait there's more, a clean channel that does fendery clean, to fat plexi breakup, all the way to cranked plexi.

Very versatile, and addicting to play. You have to play this amp cranked in person, to fully appreciate it, the videos sound good but honestly do not do it justice.

Thanks again Scott

It was fun Brad, thanks for having be over! It's always fun to talk gear and nerd out at the component level

It was good to be able to listen to the amp through different speakers and at a decent volume. I have no doubt the amp can cut through any mix. I'm still figuring out new settings on this beast. Also fun to compare BE100 builds. I think your V30/Greenback cab sounds warmer and a little more thump than my all V30 cab. That's definitely a good speaker combo.