Is good tone really subjective? Discuss...

[moltenmetalburn]

I was thinking about this the other day while in the studio reamping some guitars and discussing the complexities of good tone and a mix with the Engineer.

Typically we all come to the agreement that good tone is subjective, the ear of the individual listener is left to decide what is pleasing to them and what is not and that is the defining factor between good and bad tone; personal opinion. I'm starting to think that this is quite far from the truth and more politically correct than anything else.

Lets put bedroom players aside for a moment, they are not the basis of my opinion. At home you can make your amp sound however you like it, it will never matter to anyone but you.

Ok, so we all know that when playing live or making a recording that leaving sonic space in the overall mix for each instrument is paramount.

The guitars shouldn't not have so much highs they mask cymbals, they also should not have so much bass they mask the bass player.

scooping your mids makes you less apparent in the overall mix and tends to lead to a hollow sound.

So, Isn't it safe for me to say that a sound that is pumping so much bass you might as well not have a bassist, scooped out so much mids you might as well not be there at all, etc, means that you have a bad sound no matter how awesome you think it is.

I'm really starting to believe good tone is quite far from subjective. there are clear facts about what makes a guitar sound best with a band . If you pump frequencies outside these parameters you worsen the overall mix, therefore your tone is bad. Even if it makes the hair on your neck stand on end.

I am only discussing the sound onstage coming out of your speaker, if your sound guy does a ton of corrective EQ for the FOH mix then that is no longer your guitar tone.

Discuss friends.

 

[amiller]

I agree you can have bad tone. Now, good tone, within certain parameters is subjective. In other words, I think there are lots of different guitar tones that still fit into the "sonic" space of a recording. So, is it safe to say that, in general, good tone should fall withing certain guide lines.

huh...?

 

[glassjaw7]

IMO there is good tone and there is bad tone, and it's not really subjective. Sure certain tones may be better suited for certain styles of music, and not everybody will like the same tone or music for that matter.

It's like actors. There are good actors and bad. You can't tell me that Johnny Depp is a bad actor. You may not like him or his movies, but he is a good actor. How's that for an analogy?

 

[RaceU4her]

i think its completely subjective. people post bands and clips that would drive me to quit playing with tone so bad yet people call it their "ideal" tone. how many people think Rust in Peace has great tone and cant stand dimebag darrell's tone?? i think they are nuts

 

[Death by Uberschall]

I think it falls in between the ends of a usable frequency range, with tweaks to the curve. I like my curve to have more lower mids and bass rather than higher mids and thin treble, with everything else balanced around it. I'm sure that's the reason why Bogner is the amp for me.

I also think the gain structure has a lot to do with it. If I'm getting a fuzzy/buzzy/ear splitting type of overdrive, I've got to get it out of there. I like a smoother overdrive.

I also think bad tone comes from using the wrong guitar, pups and amp for the desired tone.

 

[Bob Savage]

I was thinking about this the other day while in the studio reamping some guitars and discussing the complexities of good tone and a mix with the Engineer.

Typically we all come to the agreement that good tone is subjective, the ear of the individual listener is left to decide what is pleasing to them and what is not and that is the defining factor between good and bad tone; personal opinion. I'm starting to think that this is quite far from the truth and more politically correct than anything else.

Lets put bedroom players aside for a moment, they are not the basis of my opinion. At home you can make your amp sound however you like it, it will never matter to anyone but you.

Ok, so we all know that when playing live or making a recording that leaving sonic space in the overall mix for each instrument is paramount.

The guitars shouldn't not have so much highs they mask cymbals, they also should not have so much bass they mask the bass player.

scooping your mids makes you less apparent in the overall mix and tends to lead to a hollow sound.

So, Isn't it safe for me to say that a sound that is pumping so much bass you might as well not have a bassist, scooped out so much mids you might as well not be there at all, etc, means that you have a bad sound no matter how awesome you think it is.

I'm really starting to believe good tone is quite far from subjective. there are clear facts about what makes a guitar sound best with a band . If you pump frequencies outside these parameters you worsen the overall mix, therefore your tone is bad. Even if it makes the hair on your neck stand on end.

I am only discussing the sound onstage coming out of your speaker, if your sound guy does a ton of corrective EQ for the FOH mix then that is no longer your guitar tone.

Discuss friends.

You're stated opinions and then called them facts in an effort to demonstrate that tone is not subjective.

It's still subjective.

 

[Mailman1971]

I think its when and how its used.
A good scooped tone...probably wont work too well on a classic rock song but would fit in perfect for some speed metal.
So to me....damn near all tones are good if they are used in the right applications.
Plus I have to be in the MOOD to hear different tunes.
What I want to rock out to one day may sound perfect but a week later it may sound crappy.
So my opinion its up to the listener to determine if its good or not.
Clean Spanking country tone.....sounds good for that genre....and so on.

 

[moltenmetalburn]

I was thinking about this the other day while in the studio reamping some guitars and discussing the complexities of good tone and a mix with the Engineer.

Typically we all come to the agreement that good tone is subjective, the ear of the individual listener is left to decide what is pleasing to them and what is not and that is the defining factor between good and bad tone; personal opinion. I'm starting to think that this is quite far from the truth and more politically correct than anything else.

Lets put bedroom players aside for a moment, they are not the basis of my opinion. At home you can make your amp sound however you like it, it will never matter to anyone but you.

Ok, so we all know that when playing live or making a recording that leaving sonic space in the overall mix for each instrument is paramount.

The guitars shouldn't not have so much highs they mask cymbals, they also should not have so much bass they mask the bass player.

scooping your mids makes you less apparent in the overall mix and tends to lead to a hollow sound.

So, Isn't it safe for me to say that a sound that is pumping so much bass you might as well not have a bassist, scooped out so much mids you might as well not be there at all, etc, means that you have a bad sound no matter how awesome you think it is.

I'm really starting to believe good tone is quite far from subjective. there are clear facts about what makes a guitar sound best with a band . If you pump frequencies outside these parameters you worsen the overall mix, therefore your tone is bad. Even if it makes the hair on your neck stand on end.

I am only discussing the sound onstage coming out of your speaker, if your sound guy does a ton of corrective EQ for the FOH mix then that is no longer your guitar tone.

Discuss friends.

You're stated opinions and then called them facts in an effort to demonstrate that tone is not subjective.

It's still subjective.

I dont follow you bob, can you elaborate?

It is fact that each instrument needs to occupy its own sonic space for the best possible mix, and what frequency ranges are best for those results are clearly defined.

Can you point out the opinions you say I make? I see that i use the word opinion but the facts of a clear good sounding mix are real.

 

[moltenmetalburn]

I think it falls in between the ends of a usable frequency range, with tweaks to the curve. I like my curve to have more lower mids and bass rather than higher mids and thin treble, with everything else balanced around it. I'm sure that's the reason why Bogner is the amp for me.

I also think the gain structure has a lot to do with it. If I'm getting a fuzzy/buzzy/ear splitting type of overdrive, I've got to get it out of there. I like a smoother overdrive.

I also think bad tone comes from using the wrong guitar, pups and amp for the desired tone.

I think you're right about the gray area within the usable frequency range and also the gain structure. there is more to this than I have previously stated.

I see the variability in good tones you have pointed out, but wouldn't any type of sound outside those ranges be considered bad?

 

[Bob Savage]

I dont follow you bob, can you elaborate?

It is fact that each instrument needs to occupy its own sonic space for the best possible mix, and what frequency ranges are best for those results are clearly defined.

Can you point out the opinions you say I make?

What constitutes an instrument occupying its own space is a matter of subjectivity. There will always be overlap amongst instruments, it all a matter of what's pleasing to the ear of the listener, mixing engineer, etc. It's not a matter of fact, it's a matter of subjectivity, and the frequency ranges that are "best" (subjective term) for those results are not clearly defined as a matter of scientific fact. While some know-it-alls may present these dogmatically, they're only useful as guidelines, not hard set ranges that remain the same regardless of the instruments, amplifiers and musical style.

Make sense?

 

[Vrad]

It's like hot chicks.
Some chicks are universally hot. If you're a straight male, you'd have to find them very attractive...

There are other chicks that fall within the subjective region of 'someone's thing'... The closer they are to the extremes, the less debate there's gonna be.

Same thing with tone.

 

[moltenmetalburn]

I dont follow you bob, can you elaborate?

It is fact that each instrument needs to occupy its own sonic space for the best possible mix, and what frequency ranges are best for those results are clearly defined.

Can you point out the opinions you say I make?

What constitutes an instrument occupying its own space is a matter of subjectivity. There will always be overlap amongst instruments, it all a matter of what's pleasing to the ear of the listener, mixing engineer, etc. It's not a matter of fact, it's a matter of subjectivity, and the frequency ranges that are "best" (subjective term) for those results are not clearly defined as a matter of scientific fact. While some may present these dogmatically, they're only useful as guidelines, not hard set ranges that remain the same regardless of the instruments, amplifiers and musical style.


Make sense?

Sure, I clearly understand your points now,thanks.

I do know a few mix and mastering engineers who would argue the that it is scientifically provable secondary to psycho-acoustics. Not my bag though and I couldn't do the explaining. Maybe I can get one to chime in here ill see.

 

[Bob Savage]

I do know a few mix and mastering engineers who would argue the that it is scientifically provable secondary to psycho-acoustics. Not my bag though and I couldn't do the explaining. Maybe I can get one to chime in here ill see.

I classify those types the same way I do the people that judge the sound of an amp based upon how it looks on a scope.

It's the sound that matters, which as far as I'm aware, requires one to use their ears.

And by the way, I won't argue with of those types either. Neither mind will be changed.

 

[Death by Uberschall]

I see the variability in good tones you have pointed out, but wouldn't any type of sound outside those ranges be considered bad?

I wouldn't say it would be bad.

But twenty yrs ago who would have thought the new Mesa Dual recto would re-shape the way we hear the guitar in a metal/hard rock world?

 

[messenger]

You could have good tone, and still have a shitty mix. On the Metallica Black Album they fit the bass in to a sonic space that wasn't being occupied. Had the BASS been not as punchy and was more "bassy" it would have been lost like in previous albums.

I was just listening to My Friend of Misery as I was reading this thread and thought of this.

 

[Vrad]

I do know a few mix and mastering engineers who would argue the that it is scientifically provable secondary to psycho-acoustics. Not my bag though and I couldn't do the explaining. Maybe I can get one to chime in here ill see.

I classify those types the same way I do the people that judge the sound of an amp based upon how it looks on a scope.

It's the sound that matters, which as far as I'm aware, requires one to use their ears.

I think all instruments should be tuned to either 50hz or 5000khz. Nothing in the middle. What you think?

 

[Bob Savage]

I think all instruments should be tuned to either 50hz or 5000khz. Nothing in the middle. What you think?

I prefer 47.899Hz and 3797.03Khz.

 

[Vrad]

I think all instruments should be tuned to either 50hz or 5000khz. Nothing in the middle. What you think?

I prefer 47.899Hz and 3797.03Khz.

Why? 5000khz too bright for you? You should try 3897.73Khz. It adds a certain sparkle.

 

[moltenmetalburn]

I do know a few mix and mastering engineers who would argue the that it is scientifically provable secondary to psycho-acoustics. Not my bag though and I couldn't do the explaining. Maybe I can get one to chime in here ill see.

I classify those types the same way I do the people that judge the sound of an amp based upon how it looks on a scope.

It's the sound that matters, which as far as I'm aware, requires one to use their ears.

And by the way, I won't argue with of those types either. Neither mind will be changed.

Fair enough!

 

[gtr31]

at what point do the Haunting mids occur