It's Really, REALLY hard to beat a (Well-Tuned and Maintained) Old Plexi

[hellzington]

Honestly, Jeremy simply changed/tweaked a few components to resemble a stock 12 series 68 superlead. So, one could argue it IS stock, but stock from 1968 vs 71. To me, that's not really a mod, just a more desirable earlier version circuit. Which is what I did, and have no regrets at all.

I just had a guy on Facebook tell me the amp isn't stock because I used a Variac. So there's that.

 

[hellzington]

I’m curious: how do amps such as the SL68, Plex, Germino, Dr Dan etc compare to an actual, vintage Super Lead?

I would guess most guys would say the ones I just listed are better in the reliability, practicality department; but what about just straight up tone?

I’m trying to “poke the bear” here, just really, genuinely curious.

Clip sounded great, by the way!!

One afternoon @pipboy90 and I shot out his Suhr SL68 (I think it's the 68, correct me if I'm wrong) against this exact Plexi you're hearing in the clip. They were very close, tbh. I thought mine had a more harmonic content and a more raw/wild/edgy in-your-face sound compared to the Suhr which sounded slightly more refined and smooth on the high end. But I want to point out that these were very small differences. The SL68 is a nice amp.

That said, there's also something about the vintage transformers... hard to quantify... they sag in some way that is difficult to explain or replicate. I've noticed this with many vintage amps. The only "measurement" I have of it is that the older amps I own tend to draw a lot of amps when you turn them up and hit them hard. This '70 Super Lead will draw 4.0-4.5 amps when you turn it up and hit a huge chord. The voltage even goes down slightly from 117v to 115v for a second or so. It's almost "browns" for a second as the amp tries to draw more power and keep up. There's something to that feel/sound/response that vintage amps do that more modern amps tend to not do. (One notable exception is my AFD100 which draws power in this way just like an old Marshall... but everyone hates them, right? )

 

[Racerxrated]

I’m curious: how do amps such as the SL68, Plex, Germino, Dr Dan etc compare to an actual, vintage Super Lead?

I would guess most guys would say the ones I just listed are better in the reliability, practicality department; but what about just straight up tone?

I’m trying to “poke the bear” here, just really, genuinely curious.

Clip sounded great, by the way!!

I haven't played all of them, but a really well built clone, with Merren transformers, Zoso caps, yada yada sounded good, cool amp...but when we compared my 69 'frankenmarshall' to it, the Marshall just sounded better. It was a 69 Major that someone made into a superlead, with Dagnall 100w 70s transformers.
The real deal was the winner.

 

[phil b]

Guitar players have this weird thing where they want an item (amp, guitar, etc) to be "bone"/"dead" stock; BUT, they also want it to sound incredible (to their ears). It's a very weird phenomenon that's not common in other industries. For example, we don't say, "I had my kitchen remodeled and now my house lost value because it's not all-original anymore. I should return it to stock before I list it on the market." We usually look at those types of things as benefits that increase the value, not as "mods" that decrease the value. But with guitars, if I take the shitty Burstbuckers out of my Gibson Les Paul and put in a $500 pair of Lollar Imperials, the guitar actually loses value. It makes absolutely no sense.

This is especially tough with old Marshalls because Marshall used whatever components they had on hand at any given day. Fender did the same thing frequently too. (How many Fender Bassmans marked AA165 are actually AB165? Exactly.) So what is "stock" on an old Marshall where one day they were using 4700pf bright caps and the next day they weren't? What is "stock" when they were using 25k Mid and Presence pots one day and 50k the next? To that end, what is a "Plexi?" Is it just ones with a plexiglass panel? If so, is an early 90's 1959 reissue with a plexiglass panel a true Plexi? What about modern 1959HW reissues? Is it just 1959's with plexiglass panels or does it encompass 1987's? JTM45's with Plexi panels? Different circuit but still technically a "Plexi." Is my 1959 a Plexi even though it has a metal panel? You get the point.

So what is an "all original" old Marshall? What is "bone stock?" It's a bit of a pointless conversation. To me, if the circuit in an old Marshall is stock, then the amp is stock. The component values are all flexible because the original buyer could have gotten any variety of component values from the Marshall factory.

there are amps out there that not one resistor has been changed..etc that do sound good, still with the 2 prong cord attached. Whatever Marshall used in that particular amp on that particular day that has not been changed or altered. Those to me are "Bone Stock" amps. Those are the Marshalls die hards will pay what a house costs for a prime example of one. So when you do find one that has never been touched but sounds great #1. thats really rare and #2. if its for sale prepare to pay stupid money for it!

I agree and feel some of the older amps NEED a few tweaks to bring it back in spec of what it should be, or better yet, how it should sound. . As I mentioned, I have a 71 Super Bass that was an absolute dog bone stock. Even with minor tweaks, still keeping the circuit intact the amp still sounded bad. Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how ya look at it, those amps were all done by hand till mid 73, and as you said it was a crapshoot as to what Marshall had laying around. Thats what makes the ONE that is bone stock AND sounds great so coveted to the collecttors.

Only thing thats drives me bananas is when guys call most older Marshalls Plexis. They were called Plexis because they had a plexi panel. This is going back to when you could actually buy an original Plexi head for under $500. I had never heard a tech call A plexi panel amp a plexi for anything to do with the circuits. Ken Fischer used to correct me on this all the time when I was a kid! LOL

 

[harddriver]

I haven't played all of them, but a really well built clone, with Merren transformers, Zoso caps, yada yada sounded good, cool amp...but when we compared my 69 'frankenmarshall' to it, the Marshall just sounded better. It was a 69 Major that someone made into a superlead, with Dagnall 100w 70s transformers.
The real deal was the winner.

Amp sounds great Hellzington! Congrats....

Having built a few 68 plexis and 69 SL all with 100% NOS correct parts except using modern Dagnall clone PT and OPT they can get very very close IMHO but seem to lack some of the vintage mojo however you define it..... when compared to my 1972 Marshall SL that has the same specs an astute player will hear and feel the last 1-10% factor.... which seems to be the vintage Dagnall/Drake transformers in the 68 to 74 Marshall's IMHO.

I've heard the Merrens are supposed to be almost exact and even had a set(that I sold) but the Heyboer's are pretty darn close as well....there is just something magical about those older Marshall Dagnall's and Drake which seem to add a certain harmonic content, aggression and other intangibles that you really only experience when you plug into a great vintage original transformered Marshall.

The biggest spec difference between Plexi and SL specs is the NFB. The plexi NFB spec is 47K NFB resistor either on the speaker jack or the 8 ohm impedance tap.

Starting in 1969 Marshall went to the SL spec to make the amps more aggressive and raw for whatever reason. The SL spec is 100K NFB resistor on the 4 ohm impedance tap.

 

[braintheory]

Amp sounds great Hellzington! Congrats....

Having built a few 68 plexis and 69 SL all with 100% NOS correct parts except using modern Dagnall clone PT and OPT they can get very very close IMHO but seem to lack some of the vintage mojo however you define it..... when compared to my 1972 Marshall SL that has the same specs an astute player will hear and feel the last 1-10% factor.... which seems to be the vintage Dagnall/Drake transformers in the 68 to 74 Marshall's IMHO.

I've heard the Merrens are supposed to be almost exact and even had a set(that I sold) but the Heyboer's are pretty darn close as well....there is just something magical about those older Marshall Dagnall's and Drake which seem to add a certain harmonic content, aggression and other intangibles that you really only experience when you plug into a great vintage original transformered Marshall.

The biggest spec difference between Plexi and SL specs is the NFB. The plexi NFB spec is 47K NFB resistor either on the speaker jack or the 8 ohm impedance tap.

Starting in 1969 Marshall went to the SL spec to make the amps more aggressive and raw for whatever reason. The SL spec is 100K NFB resistor on the 4 ohm impedance tap.

They don't even need to be an astute player, just an astute listener. When I was younger my dad used to be there when I'd try all these amps, he doesn't play, but he still also heard all these differences and appreciated the one time I tried a real '70's Dumble

I remember also one time showing a friend some of my classical guitars. We compared them and his girlfriend in the room (who doesn't play any instruments) had stronger opinions about the guitars than we did lol. This is partly why I never bought in to this whole idea that the audience won't appreciate the differences. You never really know who will or won't

 

[braintheory]

I’m curious: how do amps such as the SL68, Plex, Germino, Dr Dan etc compare to an actual, vintage Super Lead?

I would guess most guys would say the ones I just listed are better in the reliability, practicality department; but what about just straight up tone?

I’m trying to “poke the bear” here, just really, genuinely curious.

Clip sounded great, by the way!!

I remember the one Germino I tried actually sounding quite good, but my ears weren't as experienced back then. The Metroplex I had sounded filtered/restrained vs vintage Marshall's. I haven't tried the other 2 you mentioned, but in general that's my experience with recent boutique copies vs the original vintage versions: they sound filtered/restrained like they lacks some life or energy vs the real vintage one sounding more raw, organic and as whole just a lot more inspiring and fun to play to play through

 

[Racerxrated]

Amp sounds great Hellzington! Congrats....

Having built a few 68 plexis and 69 SL all with 100% NOS correct parts except using modern Dagnall clone PT and OPT they can get very very close IMHO but seem to lack some of the vintage mojo however you define it..... when compared to my 1972 Marshall SL that has the same specs an astute player will hear and feel the last 1-10% factor.... which seems to be the vintage Dagnall/Drake transformers in the 68 to 74 Marshall's IMHO.

I've heard the Merrens are supposed to be almost exact and even had a set(that I sold) but the Heyboer's are pretty darn close as well....there is just something magical about those older Marshall Dagnall's and Drake which seem to add a certain harmonic content, aggression and other intangibles that you really only experience when you plug into a great vintage original transformered Marshall.

The biggest spec difference between Plexi and SL specs is the NFB. The plexi NFB spec is 47K NFB resistor either on the speaker jack or the 8 ohm impedance tap.

Starting in 1969 Marshall went to the SL spec to make the amps more aggressive and raw for whatever reason. The SL spec is 100K NFB resistor on the 4 ohm impedance tap.

Isn't the filtering a part of it though? I reduced the filtering in my 72 50 to 32/500 in the pi/screens and 16/500 in the preamp. The feel changed for the better. Typical metal panels are 50/500 throughout vs a 68 spec.

 

[Corey James]

Hellz, great tones! I noticed you have a couple Fryettes back there as well as mentioning the OX.

I'm stoked with my OX, i think it's great for home recording. How do you feel about the Fryettes? Do you use those for an effex loop with the vintage amp / or do the Friedman PLEX like Dave did at NAMM? Any other Fryette power station thoughts?

/Rock on!

 

[hellzington]

Hellz, great tones! I noticed you have a couple Fryettes back there as well as mentioning the OX.

I'm stoked with my OX, i think it's great for home recording. How do you feel about the Fryettes? Do you use those for an effex loop with the vintage amp / or do the Friedman PLEX like Dave did at NAMM? Any other Fryette power station thoughts?

/Rock on!

To me, the Fryette Power Station is a no-brainer, must-have-it piece of gear. It can do SO much and it's the most transparent attenuator I've ever tried. Yes, it's a thousand bucks but it's a thousand bucks well-spent. Here's some things I've done with it:

• Attenuate a NMV amp (like this Plexi)
• Add an FX Loop to any amp that doesn't have one
• Use the brightness options on the reactive load to add sparkle to a dark amp (For example, like the Carol-Ann Triptik)
• Used the line out for direct recording into my interface
• Used the line out for W/D rigs
• Use it to find the "sweet spot" on an amp's Master Volume
• Use it with a low wattage or "lunchbox" amp to turn it into a huge 100w/50w amp
• Used the 50w Power Station to take a 100w head an run it into a 50w Greenback 2x12 without blowing the speakers up
• Mix and match impedance options (e.g., run a 16 Ohm amp into the PS then 8 Ohms out to a 8 Ohm cab)

...and that's just off the top of my head.

It's a wonderful piece of gear I think any serious player should own. Big fan.

 

[Corey James]

To me, the Fryette Power Station is a no-brainer, must-have-it piece of gear. It can do SO much and it's the most transparent attenuator I've ever tried. Yes, it's a thousand bucks but it's a thousand bucks well-spent. Here's some things I've done with it:

• Attenuate a NMV amp (like this Plexi)
• Add an FX Loop to any amp that doesn't have one
• Use the brightness options on the reactive load to add sparkle to a dark amp (For example, like the Carol-Ann Triptik)
• Used the line out for direct recording into my interface
• Used the line out for W/D rigs
• Use it to find the "sweet spot" on an amp's Master Volume
• Use it with a low wattage or "lunchbox" amp to turn it into a huge 100w/50w amp
• Used the 50w Power Station to take a 100w head an run it into a 50w Greenback 2x12 without blowing the speakers up
• Mix and match impedance options (e.g., run a 16 Ohm amp into the PS then 8 Ohms out to a 8 Ohm cab)

...and that's just off the top of my head.

It's a wonderful piece of gear I think any serious player should own. Big fan.

Awesome, thanks. Where did you buy them? Sweetwater doesn't carry, I may talk to VK. Do you have a rep somewhere you'd recommend?

 

[hellzington]

Awesome, thanks. Where did you buy them? Sweetwater doesn't carry, I may talk to VK. Do you have a rep somewhere you'd recommend?

I got mine at Pitbull Audio here in San Diego. Give them a call. I'll shoot you a DM with the name of the guy to ask for.

 

[DMartin356]

Yep, 90v. It's not biased for the variac, though. It's biased at 117v.

Clip sounded great! I use a Variac the same way, I’ve heard various theories on biasing to match. I’ve never had an issue but it’s always in the back of my head that it may damage the amp.

 

[hellzington]

Clip sounded great! I use a Variac the same way, I’ve heard various theories on biasing to match. I’ve never had an issue but it’s always in the back of my head that it may damage the amp.

Thanks man! I may be wrong, so someone correct me if I'm not, but underpowering the amp is ok. In other words, if you are biased at 117v and variac to 90v, it's fine. However, overpower the amp is not ok. So if you were biased at 90v and used the amp at 117v it may blow something. I think?

 

[psychodave]

To me, the Fryette Power Station is a no-brainer, must-have-it piece of gear. It can do SO much and it's the most transparent attenuator I've ever tried. Yes, it's a thousand bucks but it's a thousand bucks well-spent. Here's some things I've done with it:

• Attenuate a NMV amp (like this Plexi)
• Add an FX Loop to any amp that doesn't have one
• Use the brightness options on the reactive load to add sparkle to a dark amp (For example, like the Carol-Ann Triptik)
• Used the line out for direct recording into my interface
• Used the line out for W/D rigs
• Use it to find the "sweet spot" on an amp's Master Volume
• Use it with a low wattage or "lunchbox" amp to turn it into a huge 100w/50w amp
• Used the 50w Power Station to take a 100w head an run it into a 50w Greenback 2x12 without blowing the speakers up
• Mix and match impedance options (e.g., run a 16 Ohm amp into the PS then 8 Ohms out to a 8 Ohm cab)

...and that's just off the top of my head.

It's a wonderful piece of gear I think any serious player should own. Big fan.

Okay, the clip sounds great.... but I'm going to be the downer and tease a bit. You're using something to attenuate, so you're adding in some attenuator sound. Also, is the amp a "Plexi" as stated or is it a metal panel Marshall? There are some major differences from the plexi to metal panels like transformers, part manufacturers, voltage differences, etc.

Also, I'd try adjusting the bias for the voltage... who knows, you might like it more. Only one way to find out.

 

[hellzington]

Okay, the clip sounds great.... but I'm going to be the downer and tease a bit. You're using something to attenuate, so you're adding in some attenuator sound. Also, is the amp a "Plexi" as stated or is it a metal panel Marshall? There are some major differences from the plexi to metal panels like transformers, part manufacturers, voltage differences, etc.

Also, I'd try adjusting the bias for the voltage... who knows, you might like it more. Only one way to find out.

Ahoy and thanks! To be clear: this was all done through the UA OX Box not the Fryette Power Station. Corey had just noticed the PS's and asked about them. That said, yes, it's still attenuated via the OX. (I'd love to hear it without attenuation, two cities over, from jail, through my cell window ) Yes, it's a metal panel. It still has the laydown transformer.

I'd be interested in trying out adjusting the bias for 90v! Would just have to be SUPER careful not to roast it after playing one of my other amps and forgetting to adjust the voltage. (My whole setup runs through the Voltage Regulator.)

 

[DMartin356]

Thanks man! I may be wrong, so someone correct me if I'm not, but underpowering the amp is ok. In other words, if you are biased at 117v and variac to 90v, it's fine. However, overpower the amp is not ok. So if you were biased at 90v and used the amp at 117v it may blow something. I think?

Yeah, that’s the way I understood it also.

 

[Racerxrated]

Okay, the clip sounds great.... but I'm going to be the downer and tease a bit. You're using something to attenuate, so you're adding in some attenuator sound. Also, is the amp a "Plexi" as stated or is it a metal panel Marshall? There are some major differences from the plexi to metal panels like transformers, part manufacturers, voltage differences, etc.

Also, I'd try adjusting the bias for the voltage... who knows, you might like it more. Only one way to find out.

I wouldn't say there are significant differences in the transformers, between say 68-73. Sure, the part numbers are different but they are still using Drake/Dagnalls throughout the whole time. Mustards, Daly caps, Philips fat caps etc. The voltage might be slightly different in the 100w versions but my 72 50 has the same PT/OT Drake numbers as they used in 68. If the filtering(and preamp changes; lower V1b cathode resistor, fat caps) is done like a 68, it should be pretty spot on to a 68 50w Plexi. Apart from component drift etc. I've also seen some 68 Plexis using the Philips Yellow Chiclets including what is supposedly the EVH magic Marshall, in a pic from Cameron on the Metro forum EVH thread.
Now, your 67 will have different parts than a 68; I had a 67 50T that had some Mustards but the rest was pretty different like the Hunt's caps etc.

 

[cobrahead1030]

Sounds killer

 

[TheGreatGreen]

Guitar players have this weird thing where they want an item (amp, guitar, etc) to be "bone"/"dead" stock; BUT, they also want it to sound incredible (to their ears). It's a very weird phenomenon that's not common in other industries. For example, we don't say, "I had my kitchen remodeled and now my house lost value because it's not all-original anymore. I should return it to stock before I list it on the market." We usually look at those types of things as benefits that increase the value, not as "mods" that decrease the value. But with guitars, if I take the shitty Burstbuckers out of my Gibson Les Paul and put in a $500 pair of Lollar Imperials, the guitar actually loses value. It makes absolutely no sense.

This is especially tough with old Marshalls because Marshall used whatever components they had on hand at any given day. Fender did the same thing frequently too. (How many Fender Bassmans marked AA165 are actually AB165? Exactly.) So what is "stock" on an old Marshall where one day they were using 4700pf bright caps and the next day they weren't? What is "stock" when they were using 25k Mid and Presence pots one day and 50k the next? To that end, what is a "Plexi?" Is it just ones with a plexiglass panel? If so, is an early 90's 1959 reissue with a plexiglass panel a true Plexi? What about modern 1959HW reissues? Is it just 1959's with plexiglass panels or does it encompass 1987's? JTM45's with Plexi panels? Different circuit but still technically a "Plexi." Is my 1959 a Plexi even though it has a metal panel? You get the point.

So what is an "all original" old Marshall? What is "bone stock?" It's a bit of a pointless conversation. To me, if the circuit in an old Marshall is stock, then the amp is stock. The component values are all flexible because the original buyer could have gotten any variety of component values from the Marshall factory.

A lot of guitar players use magical thinking when it comes to gear. Most don't think of amps as a curated collections of filters and gain stages as dictated by another man's ear, or more cynically, a committee's product design done on a budget for the purposes of maximum market viability. Instead, guitar players tend to think of amps as monolithic black boxes that produce sound somewhere between "awful" and "perfect" on a sliding scale and they just are what they are, forever.

Basically, people like this have a kind of Excalibur Syndrome, where they think either a piece of gear is perfect and pure for purpose in the state they first discover it, or it is not. They think it's fine for some dude who calls themselves an amp designer to pull whatever selection of hundreds of components out of the ether to do what they do, but the moment someone else personalizes any single part of that circuit for their needs, well the amp is "ruined" because it's no longer "pure" or whatever. Personally, I believe any piece of gear is nothing more than a starting platform. If you happen to like the way it is, that’s great, but if you don’t, then absolutely mod it to the moon and back if that's what gets you were you want to go.

I cannot really even begin to describe my disdain for "vintage purism." It totally misses the point. To me, the entire reason gear exists is so musicians can have tools that translate the ideas in their heads to reality. That's it. The purpose of a Les Paul or a Strat is not to be produced one specific way and kept totally unchanged and unpersonalized for 100 years so some asshole collector can point to it in a pile of other gear in their collection and fondle themselves while bragging about how "period correct" it is as it sits there and never gets played. Fuck that guy.

Do you have a guitar with a neck that fits your hand exactly and that resonates in just the right way, but the pickups are a little too low output? Welp, too bad. Better throw the baby out with the bathwater and sell it because it didn't come out of the box exactly perfect for you, specifically. Forget that the turn-key solution of the perfect pickups for you and that guitar absolutely exist and can be swapped out seamlessly. Not good enough because they weren't already there when the guitar happened to enter my field of view for the first time. Do you have an amp that is 90% what you want and all it would need to get 99% there is to change or add of a couple of components? Sorry, better sell it right away, otherwise Collector Cantplay McHordesalot might put his nose up at it 80 years down the road.