Chris O
Well-known member
Figures…
Monkey Man
Well-known member
Moderator
I didn't actually know that.
Sneaky.
Sneaky.
rsm
Well-known member
I have Ableton Live, but to just play/use plugins that don't have standalone I use Blue Cat Audio's PatchWork which is a VST, etc., host. I think I paid $79 on sale for it years ago, I think it's $99? Well worth it; takes less computer resources than running a DAW like Ableton.
Worth a look; they offer a free trial too.
https://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_PatchWork/
mentoneman
Well-known member
the tonex updates have me intrigued. haven’t messed with mine in a while.
mentoneman
Well-known member
and NAM captures seem to be the flavor of the month as the tech is getting smarter and cheaper
VaporDemon
Member
I hope it’s a bit more sonically inspiring than the OG helix native software and the 3 Metallurgy plugins they had come out with. Most plugins, modelers, and digital guitar products usually have only a few sounds that actuexcite me where I don’t want to stop playing which for me is the real test of if something sounds great or not. Neural DSP stuff doesn’t have that issue for what I like and I always find great presets from them out of the box. Fractal of course is another above and beyond brand that has great stuff out of the box. I find a lot of digital solutions suffer in the low to mid gain territory and more than half of them those type of sounds sound super low level and like missing some of the magic. And last but not least I find the clean/semi clean tones that sound best are slightly gainy with my guitar volume rolled back, which is the Rabea Massaad approach for “clean tones” Still excited to try this new Helix trial out!
rsm
Well-known member
I had a Helix LT, upgraded to a Helix Floor, and now have a Stadium XL. I rarely used Helix Native.
when it comes to guitar plugins, I like and own a few Neural DSP plugins, but my main plugin is PolyChrome DSP McRocklin Suite; they've released a few more plugins, but the only other one I purchased was their Nunchuk - based on JCM 800 / modded JCM 800; while it's good, it's not as versatile as the McRocklin Suite, and I can get most tones I like from clean to high gain.
They have plugins for vintage, modern high gain, and other categories. But I could get 95% of my tones from McRocklin Suite, probably more if I didn't have the Neural DSP plugins.
They often have sales, and they have free trial versions. Worth a look. IMO
https://www.polychromedsp.com/
They have a 30% off sale going on now.
when it comes to guitar plugins, I like and own a few Neural DSP plugins, but my main plugin is PolyChrome DSP McRocklin Suite; they've released a few more plugins, but the only other one I purchased was their Nunchuk - based on JCM 800 / modded JCM 800; while it's good, it's not as versatile as the McRocklin Suite, and I can get most tones I like from clean to high gain.
They have plugins for vintage, modern high gain, and other categories. But I could get 95% of my tones from McRocklin Suite, probably more if I didn't have the Neural DSP plugins.
They often have sales, and they have free trial versions. Worth a look. IMO
https://www.polychromedsp.com/
They have a 30% off sale going on now.
The~Kid
Well-known member
I figure Line 6 will offer a free thing to compete that is good as NAM 2 and then provide a higher tier for money..... Probably build a similar ecosystem and economy based on it just like the NAM 2 stuff..... Why wouldn't they....
Also the way I see it the way captures work is it's mainly a capture of a sweet spot and it's IR..... Maybe more complex than that but essentially that. Line 6 actually models amps and their physical components/circuits in theory on a digital level...... So it's going to behave more like a real amp....
In either case in general you know the old saying "if it's too good to be true"...... And not that the NAM 2 stuff is bad and it sounds amazing but usually that old saying holds true especially with free stuff in regards to quality
Also the way I see it the way captures work is it's mainly a capture of a sweet spot and it's IR..... Maybe more complex than that but essentially that. Line 6 actually models amps and their physical components/circuits in theory on a digital level...... So it's going to behave more like a real amp....
In either case in general you know the old saying "if it's too good to be true"...... And not that the NAM 2 stuff is bad and it sounds amazing but usually that old saying holds true especially with free stuff in regards to quality
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rsm
Well-known member
I figure Line 6 will offer a free thing to compete that as good as NAM 2 and then provide a higher tier for money..... Probably build a similar ecosystem and economy based on it just like the NAM 2 stuff..... Why wouldn't they....
Also the way I see it the way captures work is it's mainly a capture of a sweet spot and it's IR..... Maybe more complex than that but essentially that. Line 6 actually models amps and their physical components/circuits in theory on a digital level...... So it's going to behave more like a real amp....
In either case in general you know the old saying "if it's too good to be true"...... And not that the NAM 2 stuff is bad and it sounds amazing but usually that old saying holds true especially with free stuff in regards to quality
I am dissapoint thatLine 6 isn't adding support for NAM A2 Full, or any NAM. They're continuing on with their proprietary capture tech, Proxy.
I haven't tried Proxy yet because it's still a work in progress, and hasn't compared well vs more mature capture tech.
The more I think about capture vs modeling, unless you do it yourself, there are so many captures and modeler presets available for free or paid that it would take time to find what you like, and wonder if there is better out there.
Sorting through hundreds or thousands of uploaded captures or modeler presets is tedious and may not be rewarding. I don't have the tools to do a good capture anyway, and I'm not planning to get them or use them unless I hear one I like and it's free to download.
Honestly my VP4 with a tube amp in 4CM is tough to beat. My first pedal board in over 10+ years with a tube amp is tough to beat. My pedals or VP4 with my Tone King Royalist pedal is tough to beat.
I'm still creating patches and snapshots in my Stadium XL and plan to keep doing it. Very pleased with the results so far. Experience with Helix and ease of use make it faster and easier than other options including captures.
my $0.02 worth
The~Kid
Well-known member
I mean it's sort of like with Shimano or SRAM or Intel or Nvidia or something. Usually with stuff like that in general companies don't like to support or share others tech as it bites into their revenue essentially and market share/space. I'm not saying it's not possible somehow but they kind of have zero incentive to do so one figures to support NAM 2 or whatever else for free that they don't own.
rsm
Well-known member
Proprietary is usually the first choice of vendors to maintain control, but proprietary vs open is another consideration. For some, having an open platform that runs on different hardware will be important; for others, having direct single vendor support for the platform is important. Legacy also matters.
The number of NAMA2 captures is growing fast; especially compared to Line 6 Proxy. Proxy doesn't have years of legacy captures, and will likely not have as many as NAM A2 in the long run. The limited choices and its' immaturity will keep it lagging for awhile; and those who want an open capture platform will continue to support and grow NAM faster than Line 6 may have difficulty keeping up with. I also wonder what Yamaha's involvement in this decisions may be, if any?
At this point, I have zero interest in Proxy because I purchased my Stadium for digital modeling....I'm also not interested in NAM A2 because I have zero interest in making my own captures or searching through existing captures to find a handful I like....kinda reminds me of IRs when they took off in the market, and even today there thousands of IRs to sort through if you're interested. However, I may change my mind as NAM A2 Full ecosystem grows...
Now if an inexpensive hardware device comes along, running NAM A2 full, with a well curated set of open, free captures to start with, and a good form factor, I'll probably buy it. If it's really good, I'll use it more; if I use it more, I may sell things I don't use as much, such as my Stadium; and I probably won't be as interested in future Helix hardware.
The~Kid
Well-known member
Yeah I mean I don't really use this stuff but out of the two when it comes to captures and modeling I still think modeling is better as the aim is to replicate the behavior of an amp and not just the sound of one and there is a difference. I believe some of the more advanced modeling incorporates captures now too.
In this sense one can even say a solid modeling amp really is the next best thing to a real amp especially if you have a good sounding an real sounding power section or emulation of one.
Plus IME products one pays for usually always are better than free ones.
When it comes to this stuff Boss or Line 6 in this case would be my first choice looking into it more if I ever did decide to incorporate this stuff into my rig but that's me
In this sense one can even say a solid modeling amp really is the next best thing to a real amp especially if you have a good sounding an real sounding power section or emulation of one.
Plus IME products one pays for usually always are better than free ones.
When it comes to this stuff Boss or Line 6 in this case would be my first choice looking into it more if I ever did decide to incorporate this stuff into my rig but that's me
rsm
Well-known member
Yeah I mean I don't really use this stuff but out of the two when it comes to captures and modeling I still think modeling is better as the aim is to replicate the behavior of an amp and not just the sound of one and there is a difference. I believe some of the more advanced modeling incorporates captures now too.
In this sense one can even say a solid modeling amp really is the next best thing to a real amp especially if you have a good sounding an real sounding power section or emulation of one.
Plus IME products one pays for usually always are better than free ones.
When it comes to this stuff Boss or Line 6 in this case would be my first choice looking into it more if I ever did decide to incorporate this stuff into my rig but that's me
I got a Mooer Prime P1, and the P2, along with the wireless floor controller. I commented on the Mooer videos they should just put the P2 into their 4-button footswitch, and they did, the Mooer Prime S1. It works and sounds great, has user IRs, and a usable app.
I think the Chinese digital modeler makers are making very good low cost modelers. They will eventually take over the mid-tier modeler market if they haven't already, and will be going after Helix, Quad Cortex, and eve Axe-FX. There will be die hard fanbois of the top platforms, but if Hotone, Mooer, NUX, etc., continue to offer better modeling and low prices, and NAM A2 Full without any conversions, they will put a dent in the top tier digital modeling and capture.
Headrush full embraced NAM A2 and supports Full; and they did it with a free firmware update for existing owners of the latest Headrush products, not just their flagship product...that's what Line 6 should have done IMO.
Kemper, Quad Cortexand NAM have proven that capture is viable, what I've read here and seen is that to be most effective, you need to do your own captures with your exact gear to get the best results...any capture platform that makes that simple, fool-proof and easier to get good captures without needing professional recording studio gear is going to challenge digital modeling and other capture platforms.
If I could put my Helix Stadium XL in front of one of my amps; connect a few cables and press a button to capture the amp as it is currently set, I'd give it a try....not if I need several mics, mic placement around the cab and room, and channel strips, and full recording gear, compressors, EQ, etc., no thanks.
It's tough to say if modeling or capture will win, I think both will have a place; and ease of use, sound and feel quality, and flexibility are going to be important.
Capturing your full rig makes sense, and I create digital modelling patches with specific guitars and my main FRFR. If I plug a les paul into a tube amp, and then a Fender strat, I'm going to tweak the amp settings for whatever guitar / effects I'm using; same for my modeler patches, and assume same for captures.
Shask
Well-known member
Yeah I mean I don't really use this stuff but out of the two when it comes to captures and modeling I still think modeling is better as the aim is to replicate the behavior of an amp and not just the sound of one and there is a difference. I believe some of the more advanced modeling incorporates captures now too.
In this sense one can even say a solid modeling amp really is the next best thing to a real amp especially if you have a good sounding an real sounding power section or emulation of one.
Plus IME products one pays for usually always are better than free ones.
When it comes to this stuff Boss or Line 6 in this case would be my first choice looking into it more if I ever did decide to incorporate this stuff into my rig but that's me
I dont really think the technology has anything to do with the cost. Currently NAM A2 is the closest to copying the source tone and dynamics. Yeah, it is free, but that is because it is not from a company trying to sell hardware units. They are building a new technology that can be used in other hardware units, like a MP3 or IR file.
With traditional modelers you are restricted to the algorithms of the company. For example, a JCM800 on an Axe-Fx will sound like Fractal's interpretation of a JCM800. All of their modeling will have that sound and dynamics. You are also assuming their interpretation is 100% accurate, which, it isn't. For this thread, Line 6 has a 'sound'. All of their amp models sound like Line 6's interpretation of the amps.
So, you have it backwards. Currently captures are the closest to replicating the source. Yeah, it is only one sound, but that one sound is more accurate. Maybe one day traditional modeling will get there, but for now, it is not as accurate, even if you can adjust the sound.
The~Kid
Well-known member
iMO since the modelers actually behave more like andactual amp overall they are still ahead and years ahead of captures especially as captures are being used to further enhance modeling.
It ain't bad and it makes sense but for me given an option I'd still go Line 6/Boss but maybe give a Headrush a try to see what's up and I wouldn't be surprised if the main market leaders were still better to use this with in a traditional set up.
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Shask
Well-known member
The capture units pick up the frequency response, dynamics, and reaction to pick attack better. The modelers may be better at adjusting the EQ like the original, but the foundation is not as good, IMO.
To me, the modelers sound more like a recording of an amp, where capture units sound more like playing the actual amp in the room.
The~Kid
Well-known member
Aside from the modelers the fx units are again based on after actual pedals and their behavior and not simply captures of sweet spots if one thinks about it even down to the circuit.
Some of the stuff from Boss for example like the 200 and 500 series is almost indistinguishable from the actual units they are modeling and feel like the real thing too. Plus I don't have to hook up into a laptop or whatever to use it either.
In that sense the modelers really offer a more authentic and more real representation of said product. I think the captures are great but in the end it will probably only serve and enhance the modeling to make even better models IMO.
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The~Kid
Well-known member
Yeah I guess they are both different things for different purposes.
Honestly dont have a decent computer set up so for me it's a pass and probably don't have the need to personally invest in one for gear.
Honestly I have been just sticking to one setting recently for some reason and no more moving crap around..... So the captures make sense from that perspective to preset/save that tone.
And then you know even when you don't move anything..... It always sounds slightly different the next day or another so it's kind of cool from that perspective
rsm
Well-known member
I go back and forth between tube amps and modelers constantly. Using a few pedals or my VP4 with my tube amp, or just direct into my tube amps are still may favorite sounds.
For convenience I use my computer plugins more than anything; and when i want something different I use my Stadium XL.
I'm at the point where I have the guitar gear I want/need to make the guitar sounds I like, want, and more.
I plan to continue following NAM and other future technologies, but very pleased with what I have now and how it sounds. I have more amps and keyboards here than room, but nothing I want to sell; but no room to buy anything else. SMH
For convenience I use my computer plugins more than anything; and when i want something different I use my Stadium XL.
I'm at the point where I have the guitar gear I want/need to make the guitar sounds I like, want, and more.
I plan to continue following NAM and other future technologies, but very pleased with what I have now and how it sounds. I have more amps and keyboards here than room, but nothing I want to sell; but no room to buy anything else. SMH
The~Kid
Well-known member
Im so backwards my idea of a capture is setting up my Boss Katana Artist Mkll next to an amp, getting the Katana as close as I can and then saving it as a preset....
I'm not kidding
Usually when I do this I turn it up loud and the louder the better to get the full spectrum of volume relative to the amp I'm trying to emulate. Its not exactly the same but I've surprised myself how good it can sound and sometimes pretty damn spot on going A/B using pedals and such.
I'm not kidding
Usually when I do this I turn it up loud and the louder the better to get the full spectrum of volume relative to the amp I'm trying to emulate. Its not exactly the same but I've surprised myself how good it can sound and sometimes pretty damn spot on going A/B using pedals and such.
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