Mesa Boogie Recto 4x12 Dislike

[JakeAC5253]

You can say that about 40 more times, and at least this community (me and the voices in my head) would agree with you.

I was actually kind of against the Recto 4x12 until I started reading what the recording community was saying about it. Their viewpoint totally re-framed how I listen to that cab.

Out of sheer curiosity, what was said that changed your mind.

 

[some dude]

Out of sheer curiosity, what was said that changed your mind.

Here's a repost of what I posted on another forum;

Found the quote below on a recording site. Kind of re-framed how I view these cabs. I checked around some more and found it was a recurring theme on recording forums.

For those who're new to Mesa;

The Recto Standard is the oversized Recto cabs
The Recto Traditional are now called the 'Stiletto' cabs.

I wanted to share some recent experiences with these two cabs with you.

Most of my prior guitar recording experiences focus around recording the Mesa Traditional cab. This one has a very interesting and unique midrange focus not really found in any other cabinet. It can do a certain sound well, but I always found it lacking in some regards as the kind of tone I tend to be after is focused differently.

Well, lo and behold the other day I got a chance (along with some friends) to try out the Recto Standard alongside the Traditional with these amp heads:

EVH 5150 III
Mesa Boogie Mark IV
ENGL Invader 100W

There were 3 guitarists there, myself included. We all thought the Recto Standard consistently performed better with all 3 amps, and with both our guitars (Jackson Rhoads, Alder body, Duncans etc. & Schecter Hellraiser C7, Mahogany, EMG 707s).

The difference, in the best terms I can describe, is hearing your tone through a boombox/radio compared to a full-range speaker system. The Recto Standard has a strong mid-mid and upper-mid focus that gives you a rather full tone. My main complaint about it is the loose low-end, but I'm sure with the right tools that could be tweaked (we had no tubescreamers on hand, sadly).

The traditional cab, whilst having its own unique sound, has a fairly brittle, buzzy upper-mid & very full low-mid. That's what distinguishes the characteristic sound to me... the low-mids sound a certain way, and as soon as you get a 5150 or Recto through it boosted by a TS, you start to hear where The Sneap is coming from (edit: Sneap is a member of the UltimateMetal forum).

I personally like a stronger tone, and one more channeled into the mid rather than low-mid. Nordstrom's tones on Nightrage's 'Sweet Vengeance' and In Flames' 'Clayman' have been amongst my very favourite for years. The Recto Traditional cab focuses the tone more into that range. Having said that, I know Nordstrom likes the ENGL V30 cab, unfortunately for us however, none were on hand to compare with.

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/...onal-vs-standard-recto-cab-some-thoughts.html

Anyway, I've been doing something thinking and some further reading on the subject and this is what I've pieced together...

For starters, the description of the Recto Traditional is exactly what I hear in my Orange 4x12, which makes sense in a way because they're somewhat similar.

The gist of what I hear with my Orange 4x12 is that the 'attack' comes out high in the upper midrange, which tends to be where V30s sound their harshest. Then, the bassy follow through (the "G" in a 'chugging' palm muted riff) comes out in the low midrange, which is where guitar tends to sound muddy and indistinct. It's something that I never totally realized until I started A/Bing with a Recto 2x12. After a couple of weeks of using the Recto 2x12 I plugged my Orange 4x12 in and I couldn't figure out why the bass on my Orange 4x12 was so overbearing, why the mids sounded absent and why the cab sounded like mud. I was going to tear it apart this weekend and test all the wiring to see if I didn't mess something up last time I swapped speakers in that cab, however the quote above perfectly explained what I'm hearing. For me this was a bit of a mind-**** since I'd always been of the opinion that the Recto cab is loose and boomy, yet here one was being tight and clear.

My assumption is that the detuning of the Recto standard cab shifts both the attack emphasis and the bass emphasis down in frequency. So, instead of having your attack emphasized in the harsh part of the V30s response it sits a little lower in frequency where the V30 sounds smoother. Further, the bass response is shifted from the low mids to the bass frequencies. This tightens and adds clarity to guitar, but gives that slow, saggy response Recto cabs are known for whist also interfering with the bassist.

The trick is that once a microphone is on the speaker that extra bass response can be EQ'd out, so what you end up with is an overall increase to the midrange with a reduced bottom end response that makes for more smoother, fuller middle tones and improved tightness/clarity on the bottom end than the smaller cab provides.

 

[JakeAC5253]

Out of sheer curiosity, what was said that changed your mind.

Here's a repost of what I posted on another forum;

Found the quote below on a recording site. Kind of re-framed how I view these cabs. I checked around some more and found it was a recurring theme on recording forums.

For those who're new to Mesa;

The Recto Standard is the oversized Recto cabs
The Recto Traditional are now called the 'Stiletto' cabs.

I wanted to share some recent experiences with these two cabs with you.

Most of my prior guitar recording experiences focus around recording the Mesa Traditional cab. This one has a very interesting and unique midrange focus not really found in any other cabinet. It can do a certain sound well, but I always found it lacking in some regards as the kind of tone I tend to be after is focused differently.

Well, lo and behold the other day I got a chance (along with some friends) to try out the Recto Standard alongside the Traditional with these amp heads:

EVH 5150 III
Mesa Boogie Mark IV
ENGL Invader 100W

There were 3 guitarists there, myself included. We all thought the Recto Standard consistently performed better with all 3 amps, and with both our guitars (Jackson Rhoads, Alder body, Duncans etc. & Schecter Hellraiser C7, Mahogany, EMG 707s).

The difference, in the best terms I can describe, is hearing your tone through a boombox/radio compared to a full-range speaker system. The Recto Standard has a strong mid-mid and upper-mid focus that gives you a rather full tone. My main complaint about it is the loose low-end, but I'm sure with the right tools that could be tweaked (we had no tubescreamers on hand, sadly).

The traditional cab, whilst having its own unique sound, has a fairly brittle, buzzy upper-mid & very full low-mid. That's what distinguishes the characteristic sound to me... the low-mids sound a certain way, and as soon as you get a 5150 or Recto through it boosted by a TS, you start to hear where The Sneap is coming from (edit: Sneap is a member of the UltimateMetal forum).

I personally like a stronger tone, and one more channeled into the mid rather than low-mid. Nordstrom's tones on Nightrage's 'Sweet Vengeance' and In Flames' 'Clayman' have been amongst my very favourite for years. The Recto Traditional cab focuses the tone more into that range. Having said that, I know Nordstrom likes the ENGL V30 cab, unfortunately for us however, none were on hand to compare with.

http://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/...onal-vs-standard-recto-cab-some-thoughts.html

Anyway, I've been doing something thinking and some further reading on the subject and this is what I've pieced together...

For starters, the description of the Recto Traditional is exactly what I hear in my Orange 4x12, which makes sense in a way because they're somewhat similar.

The gist of what I hear with my Orange 4x12 is that the 'attack' comes out high in the upper midrange, which tends to be where V30s sound their harshest. Then, the bassy follow through (the "G" in a 'chugging' palm muted riff) comes out in the low midrange, which is where guitar tends to sound muddy and indistinct. It's something that I never totally realized until I started A/Bing with a Recto 2x12. After a couple of weeks of using the Recto 2x12 I plugged my Orange 4x12 in and I couldn't figure out why the bass on my Orange 4x12 was so overbearing, why the mids sounded absent and why the cab sounded like mud. I was going to tear it apart this weekend and test all the wiring to see if I didn't mess something up last time I swapped speakers in that cab, however the quote above perfectly explained what I'm hearing. For me this was a bit of a mind-**** since I'd always been of the opinion that the Recto cab is loose and boomy, yet here one was being tight and clear.

My assumption is that the detuning of the Recto standard cab shifts both the attack emphasis and the bass emphasis down in frequency. So, instead of having your attack emphasized in the harsh part of the V30s response it sits a little lower in frequency where the V30 sounds smoother. Further, the bass response is shifted from the low mids to the bass frequencies. This tightens and adds clarity to guitar, but gives that slow, saggy response Recto cabs are known for whist also interfering with the bassist.

The trick is that once a microphone is on the speaker that extra bass response can be EQ'd out, so what you end up with is an overall increase to the midrange with a reduced bottom end response that makes for more smoother, fuller middle tones and improved tightness/clarity on the bottom end than the smaller cab provides.

I'll drink to that

I don't touch the low end on my recorded tones. The way I approach it is that if I can't get the recording to sound 95% of the way I want it to with just a simple HI/LO pass filter, then I've done something wrong. All of the 'mud' in a Recto cab should go away immediately upon hooking up a TS pedal which filters out the low frequencies which aggravate the resonance of the cab. You definitely have to dial in the amp differently. When I first plugged into the cab I was like WOW, that is ok, I mean REALLY REALLY ok... But after a while of tuning I finally found the sweet spot where it is neither muddy nor thin, harsh nor dull and the mids shine through. A very balanced and full tone. I LOOOOVE the mid tuning of the Recto cab

Never played my Recto cab at a gig, but if I was a gigging musician I'm not sure that the Recto cab would be my primary weapon of choice. Who knows, maybe it would? I'd have to see to know for sure.

 

[some dude]

But after a while of tuning I finally found the sweet spot where it is neither muddy nor thin, harsh nor dull and the mids shine through. A very balanced and full tone. I LOOOOVE the mid tuning of the Recto cab

That's what I like about them. I don't like a whole lot of bottom end in my sound, and while it seems counter-intuitive I feel that the Recto 4x12s actually do a really good job of achieving this through allowing me to bring the bass on the amp down without loosing girth in the final product.

 

[EXPcustom]

You guys do realize the speakers changed in 2003 and the wattage rating did by 10 as well?

No one likes the new Mesas if pre 2003 are available, why do you think Metallica takes their older Mesas on the road, they can get new ones every tour if they want?

 

[some dude]

You guys do realize the speakers changed in 2003 and the wattage rating did by 10 as well?

Not to be too much of a dick about it, but in 7 years of reading internet forums you're the first one I've seen mention this, and in a world where half the internet seems to love to hate on Mesa I'd figure the haters would be happy to trumpet that detail in every thread they could.

 

[JakeAC5253]

You guys do realize the speakers changed in 2003 and the wattage rating did by 10 as well?

No one likes the new Mesas if pre 2003 are available, why do you think Metallica takes their older Mesas on the road, they can get new ones every tour if they want?

This has already been disproven. V30's haven't changed and neither has the cab. The whole 280w vs 240w thing was started by Jim Marshall because it was in his 'expert' opinion that V30's could handle 10 more watts than Celestion rated them for. So he rated his cabs at 280w instead of 240w to give himself an advertising advantage over other comparable builders.

Ironically enough, I just checked the back of my cab and the contact plate says 280w, so I don't see where anyone would get that idea.

 

[lolzgreg]

Welcome aboard, Mr. Drury

Yeah, the verdict is, Mesa Rectifier cabinets are awesome. If you don't like them, your ears are broken, or you have bad taste, because there are more metal recordings done with the Standard 4x12 than any other cabinet around.

You can ask Andy Sneap, James Murphy, Jens Bogren, and just about any of the metal greats... they'll tell you the same.

 

[D-Rock]

Some V30 loaded Mesa cabs say 240 watts, some say 280. I've seen it, so don't know what to tell you.

 

[EXPcustom]

You guys do realize the speakers changed in 2003 and the wattage rating did by 10 as well?

Not to be too much of a dick about it, but in 7 years of reading internet forums you're the first one I've seen mention this, and in a world where half the internet seems to love to hate on Mesa I'd figure the haters would be happy to trumpet that detail in every thread they could.

Read post #33, I go by personal experience and what people in the business know (Gear Slutz) not HC.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/instrume ... 30s-2.html

 

[JakeAC5253]

You guys do realize the speakers changed in 2003 and the wattage rating did by 10 as well?

Not to be too much of a dick about it, but in 7 years of reading internet forums you're the first one I've seen mention this, and in a world where half the internet seems to love to hate on Mesa I'd figure the haters would be happy to trumpet that detail in every thread they could.

Read post #33, I go by personal experience and what people in the business know (Gear Slutz) not HC.

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/instrume ... 30s-2.html

Mesa branded V30's are Celestion V30's which fall into a certain spec range which has nothing to do with wattage.

 

[EXPcustom]

More proof, go to Mesas website and look up recto cabs, you will see they are clearly marked 240watts. Rear jack no longer labels what it is now.

http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_Info/ ... lateLG.htm

Here is a picture of a back of a 2003 Mesa cab.

 

[some dude]

More proof, go to Mesas website and look up recto cabs, you will see they are clearly marked 240watts.

Rear jack no longer labels what it is now.

That would be incorrect. I have a new 2x12 with a 140w rating on it. I can take a picture when I get home if you'd like...

I don't think Mesa's updated that part of their website in the last decade...

 

[EXPcustom]

More proof, go to Mesas website and look up recto cabs, you will see they are clearly marked 240watts.

Rear jack no longer labels what it is now.

That would be incorrect. I have a new 2x12 with a 140w rating on it. I can take a picture when I get home if you'd like...

I don't think Mesa's updated that part of their website in the last decade...

We're talking about the 4x12 here, I know Mesa makes 2x12 in all kinds of different ratings, they got a 120, 130, 150. I don't really care about those, I dont want to confuse the issue.

 

[some dude]

We're talking about the 4x12 here, I know Mesa makes 2x12 in all kinds of different ratings, they got a 120, 130, 150. I don't really care about those, I dont want to confuse the issue.

It's a Recto 2x12 loaded with V30s rated at 70w each.

It doesn't confuse anything. It simply counters your arument and proves the website is inaccurate, which is why I suspect you don't want it used as an example....

 

[EXPcustom]

We're talking about the 4x12 here, I know Mesa makes 2x12 in all kinds of different ratings, they got a 120, 130, 150. I don't really care about those, I dont want to confuse the issue.

It's a Recto 2x12 loaded with V30s rated at 70w each.

It doesn't confuse anything. It simply counters your arument and proves the website is inaccurate, which is why I suspect you don't want it used as an example....

Actual I would prefer people post pics of the 4x12 jacks and year of their cab, backs of speakers would be nice, in fact I encourage it. Everytime there is a thread about these cabs, Celestions move to China for sheetmetal stamping in 2003 all people want to argue and say their is no difference in the speakers but contrary to popular belief "sound people" in the industry still prefer the older Mesa cabs.

 

[JonVengeance]

We're talking about the 4x12 here, I know Mesa makes 2x12 in all kinds of different ratings, they got a 120, 130, 150. I don't really care about those, I dont want to confuse the issue.

It's a Recto 2x12 loaded with V30s rated at 70w each.

It doesn't confuse anything. It simply counters your arument and proves the website is inaccurate, which is why I suspect you don't want it used as an example....

Actual I would prefer people post pics of the 4x12 jacks and year of their cab, backs of speakers would be nice, in fact I encourage it. Everytime there is a thread about these cabs, Celestions move to China for sheetmetal stamping in 2003 all people want to argue and say their is no difference in the speakers but contrary to popular belief "sound people" in the industry still prefer the older Mesa cabs.

People also prefer the "Block Letter" 5150s. What does that tell you?

 

[EXPcustom]

We're talking about the 4x12 here, I know Mesa makes 2x12 in all kinds of different ratings, they got a 120, 130, 150. I don't really care about those, I dont want to confuse the issue.

It's a Recto 2x12 loaded with V30s rated at 70w each.

It doesn't confuse anything. It simply counters your arument and proves the website is inaccurate, which is why I suspect you don't want it used as an example....

Actual I would prefer people post pics of the 4x12 jacks and year of their cab, backs of speakers would be nice, in fact I encourage it. Everytime there is a thread about these cabs, Celestions move to China for sheetmetal stamping in 2003 all people want to argue and say their is no difference in the speakers but contrary to popular belief "sound people" in the industry still prefer the older Mesa cabs.

People also prefer the "Block Letter" 5150s. What does that tell you?

I go by what people in the industry use and say not what people on TGP or HC post.

Anyways I want to see people post up pics of their 4x12s.

 

[JakeAC5253]

We're talking about the 4x12 here, I know Mesa makes 2x12 in all kinds of different ratings, they got a 120, 130, 150. I don't really care about those, I dont want to confuse the issue.

It's a Recto 2x12 loaded with V30s rated at 70w each.

It doesn't confuse anything. It simply counters your arument and proves the website is inaccurate, which is why I suspect you don't want it used as an example....

Actual I would prefer people post pics of the 4x12 jacks and year of their cab, backs of speakers would be nice, in fact I encourage it. Everytime there is a thread about these cabs, Celestions move to China for sheetmetal stamping in 2003 all people want to argue and say their is no difference in the speakers but contrary to popular belief "sound people" in the industry still prefer the older Mesa cabs.

I am a 'sound people' and Mesa V30's come from England, not China. I own a newly bought Recto 4x12 (2009) and the jack plate says 280w. Why don't you reveal your 'industry' sources to us, or do you prefer to keep it a secret?

 

[EXPcustom]

We're talking about the 4x12 here, I know Mesa makes 2x12 in all kinds of different ratings, they got a 120, 130, 150. I don't really care about those, I dont want to confuse the issue.

It's a Recto 2x12 loaded with V30s rated at 70w each.

It doesn't confuse anything. It simply counters your arument and proves the website is inaccurate, which is why I suspect you don't want it used as an example....

Actual I would prefer people post pics of the 4x12 jacks and year of their cab, backs of speakers would be nice, in fact I encourage it. Everytime there is a thread about these cabs, Celestions move to China for sheetmetal stamping in 2003 all people want to argue and say their is no difference in the speakers but contrary to popular belief "sound people" in the industry still prefer the older Mesa cabs.

I am a 'sound people' and Mesa V30's come from England, not China. I own a newly bought Recto 4x12 (2009) and the jack plate says 280w. Why don't you reveal your 'industry' sources to us, or do you prefer to keep it a secret?

First of all there is no more stamping dies left in England, they all went to China in 03, so the quality of the steel for the frames is not the same, low carbon 8% or less vs. British steel which is like 40% carbon and up. The soft parts are still made in the UK and so is final assembly, therefore the Hertiage and Mesa qualify for the "Made in UK" label because a certain percentage of the overall product is still made in the UK. You can ask Celestion this, ask the UK rep not the USA rep, dont take my word for it.

Post pics of your jack, I am still trying to find out production variations for myself, like the real leather tolex used in 93, mono/stereo plastic switch, etc. Also the recto, traditional, stilleto name change. Its all very confusing but I would like to see some pics, not doubting you but there is no one place that has all the Mesa 4x12 cab variations listed in order. I know from experience that the cabs do not sound the same.