music advice regarding trademark/copyright of band names...

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The_Kid

The_Kid

Active member
I understand if you cannot offer 'advice' from a legal standpoint, but if someone is interested in pm'ing me with some advice or comfortable enough to post on this thread, it would appreciated either way.

So, here is the situation.

My band is a local cover band that plays within a 100 mile radius here/around the Appleton, WI area. We do 80's/90's covers mostly with a few outside those decades to mix it up. We have been around now since January of 2012, so just over a year and a half. When we searched out any bands that have the same name, we came across one other band, but they are located in Germany and are a progressive metal band. Looking at both bands, I dont think there is a confusion of 'product' nor is there any intent to deceive anyone.

Today we were contacted by the guitar player of the German band with the following:

Conversation started today
7:23pm
Ben Franczek

so this is an email we got from our brothers in Germany, kind of interesting, but they don't appear to be registered with the US coyright office

Hi guys,
this is ****** guitarplayer from the german progressive metal band *************.
Our record company has us informed that you guys use our name ***********.
She will do further things for the case that you guys not change your bandname.
I have speak with our contact in the company to clear this things between musicians!
Because i´m sure you have this not done to have an advantage, resultant from the bandname!
So they give me this chance befor she will do other steps.
We play under this name since 1999 and we have released five records.
"**********" , "************", "********", "******" and "********" .
Our next release will be released after an longer break (because off an personel drama one our musicians) in 2014.
You can see the rights on the name are with us and we have this documentated at this time in 1999 by an notary.
Im sure we can solve this problem without the advocate!
Please think about this problem and let me know what are your decision, as soon as possible.

And sorry for my realy bad english.

Greetings from Germany
*******
****************



My question is, everything that I have been able to search online so far, gives examples of within the US as examples, west coast vs east coast of similar situations. Other things that I see state that any Trademark of band names ends outside the country for which it was registered. From what we have been able to research they do not have their name copyrighted/trademarked here in the US.

So, with all of this, is this something we need to change the band name over? Is it just a threat and as long as we are not trying to confuse people we are fine? It seems the record company wants to pursue action, but the band seems willing to let it be, if I understood the email correct. Again, if anyone wants to/can comment on it or PM me it would be appreciated.

Though we only play with in the small market/radius I mentioned, we have worked hard on our own make the name known and popular in the area, as well as getting band shirts made up for us to wear on stage, stage banner, website....blah blah blah...We all have 40 hour jobs as our main income and the band is a way for 4 guys to have a good time on weekends with some friends and in the local bar scene.

Thanks in advance, you guys all rock!! :thumbsup:
 
Something like this happened with an old band of mine, but our doppelgänger band was also in the states. We laughed about it and told them to get bent after a handful of snarky/threatening messages. Nothing ever came of it.
 
we knew the band existed, but the only 'recent' information we found when we started the band January of 2012 was...their last album was released 2010, and the last known public performance is listed back in 2006...so we pretty much thought the band was 'done'.
 
The_Kid":2bpcyn8l said:
B.C.?
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There's a band that got quite popular recently called Ghost... Cool band, check em out, very 70's shock rock Alice Cooper/KISS vibe... And they released a few albums as "Ghost" but got sued over the name and were forced to change their name to Ghost B.C. even though the original Ghost is now defunct

It was a little referential humor, but I guess the reference isn't well known lol
 
How much legal crap do you want to deal with? Someone else has been using the name and likely has it trademarked. You'd be better off changing your name before it gets legal, and if they are signed that will happen.
 
I highly doubt anything will come of it. Technically unless it's trademarked and licensed under the company, no one will really press the issue considering that the other group is from Germany...
 
i would ignore the emails. if your a local cover band who gives a fuck? If you are going to record and keep the name that's different. i wouldn't do anything until you receive some type of official notification from a lawyer or something.
I myself would probably fuck with him and tell him i had the name since 94.
 
Since most band names are goofy as it is, look at this as blessing in disguise and an opportunity to change all of your last names to be the same and then call your band by everybody's last name...i.e. The Ramones or The Osmonds etc......

You're welcome.
 
If their albums have been released in the U.S. at any point they don't need to own a trademark to have a case. A precedent is enough to make a claim of impersonation, in this case they have an especially good case since you guys do covers, which is also impersonation. Cover bands rarely get sued even though they often impersonate and almost never pay the licenses due to the songwriters and publishers, and are liable for such activity.
 
Stone Heavy Sound":37lumwwh said:
If their albums have been released in the U.S. at any point they don't need to own a trademark to have a case. A precedent is enough to make a claim of impersonation, in this case they have an especially good case since you guys do covers, which is also impersonation. Cover bands rarely get sued even though they often impersonate and almost never pay the licenses due to the songwriters and publishers, and are liable for such activity.
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Lol could you imagine Simmons or Lars or McCartney suing one of the billions of KISS/Metallica/Beatles cover bands out there? That would be career ending outrage I think... And Simmons/Ulrich both have their share of large fan outrage directed towards them
 
Tell them politely to go fuck themselves.
Something along the lines of " I would be very pleasing if you and your manager Go FuckYourselves, I hope you can understand as my German is no so good".
 
ok, tons of hilarious responses and some serious ones, I will try to approach all that apply...lol....again, I appreciate any and all 'banter'.
There's a band that got quite popular recently called Ghost... Cool band, check em out, very 70's shock rock Alice Cooper/KISS vibe... And they released a few albums as "Ghost" but got sued over the name and were forced to change their name to Ghost B.C. even though the original Ghost is now defunct

It was a little referential humor, but I guess the reference isn't well known lol
Click to expand...

Sorry, didnt catch the reference, but it is a possible straight ahead approach to solve it..

How much legal crap do you want to deal with? Someone else has been using the name and likely has it trademarked. You'd be better off changing your name before it gets legal, and if they are signed that will happen.
Click to expand...

I agree, we definately would prefer to not deal with legal stuff, which is the point of this thread. To evaluate the % chance there would be a realistic chance of that...or if someone on FB, messaged them and said something and its BIG TALK from the guitar player trying to scare us.

I highly doubt anything will come of it. Technically unless it's trademarked and licensed under the company, no one will really press the issue considering that the other group is from Germany...
Click to expand...

i would ignore the emails. if your a local cover band who gives a fuck? If you are going to record and keep the name that's different. i wouldn't do anything until you receive some type of official notification from a lawyer or something.
I myself would probably fuck with him and tell him i had the name since 94.
Click to expand...

From what I can see Trademarks are only good in the country they are filed, so if they didnt file for the trademark here in the US, it shouldnt apply to us. But I'm not 100% on that, as it gets kinda longwinded reading that stuff...lol. And we arent recording/writing anything. We play one original, but it is not an original of the band, its one that I wrote by myself, which is recorded on a cd that (for the sake of me not having an ego about it) we say it is an original of the band, but if anyone questions it, I have proof its 'my' song, not the bands.


Since most band names are goofy as it is, look at this as blessing in disguise and an opportunity to change all of your last names to be the same and then call your band by everybody's last name...i.e. The Ramones or The Osmonds etc......
Click to expand...

I agree, the cover band is more about fun, than taking over the world. None of us will set the world on fire musically, but we put on a good show, are pretty decent from song start to song end, and we charge enough to make it worth our while. The issue with changing the name if we dont 'have' to is that we have invested in things, that are paid for by some of us out of our own pocket and we dont make that much as it is a fun project and not entirely serious.


If their albums have been released in the U.S. at any point they don't need to own a trademark to have a case. A precedent is enough to make a claim of impersonation, in this case they have an especially good case since you guys do covers, which is also impersonation. Cover bands rarely get sued even though they often impersonate and almost never pay the licenses due to the songwriters and publishers, and are liable for such activity.
Click to expand...

Lol could you imagine Simmons or Lars or McCartney suing one of the billions of KISS/Metallica/Beatles cover bands out there? That would be career ending outrage I think... And Simmons/Ulrich both have their share of large fan outrage directed towards them
Click to expand...

I struggle with this....on the musician level, I understand what your saying about the not paying licenses. But from my small town musician side of it, we aren't making money off it realistically. Do I pocket some money, sure. I'm guessing I could post my expenses against it on a regular basis to show there is no money being 'made'. I can't imagine that every band out there that covers a song live (not recorded for sale) has to pay a licensing fee to perform that song. Metallica themselves started out covering songs of the NWOBHM, and i'm sure they didnt pay any licensing fees....sure once the recorded, i'm sure they paid the rights to the music/lyrics, but thats a different realm than what we are talking about here. It's not the music/lyrics that are in question, its the name. So to me this point, as much as I've babbled about it....seems apples to oranges. I have not checked yet on the US releases, as it was later last night we got the email...I will be researching more on the US release aspect of it, which I think is a more validated point of this post.


What is this "secret" band name you speak of?
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I would prefer to not mention it. Not that its any real 'secret' or anything, I just dont want to get any parties involved that dont need to be, or desire to be. It also shouldn't matter what band it is to make the point of my OP, one way or the other. If we get some resolution to the situation where its determined one resolution or another needs to happen, I'll mention it if someone is really concerned.

Tell them politely to go fuck themselves.
Something along the lines of " I would be very pleasing if you and your manager Go FuckYourselves, I hope you can understand as my German is no so good".
Click to expand...

I actually thought of something like this...using google translate to go from english to German to english to german to english again should break it up nicely, lol....and adding the tag my German is no so good would be icing. :lol: :LOL: :D
 
This happened to my metal band Prone in 2000 or so. I ignored the other band and nothing ever came of it. I could never find a documented or "registered" band name anyway, only ours. :dunno:
 
Stone Heavy Sound":f7cpkwve said:
If their albums have been released in the U.S. at any point they don't need to own a trademark to have a case. A precedent is enough to make a claim of impersonation, in this case they have an especially good case since you guys do covers, which is also impersonation. Cover bands rarely get sued even though they often impersonate and almost never pay the licenses due to the songwriters and publishers, and are liable for such activity.
Click to expand...
There is some truth to this.
http://www.legalzoom.com/intellectual-p ... over-songs

I'm not an international legal expert by any means but it didn't take me long to find these:

http://www.digitalmusicnews.com/permali ... 09twobands
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/sh ... ?t=1053221

more stuff:
https://www.google.com/#q=can+2+bands+h ... +same+name


tl;dr: google

Because it seems the other band reached out to you to try to deal with this as musicians instead of lawyers my inclination would be to send a nice note back at least saying you'll think about it. Because you are in different countries doing different genres - I wouldn't worry about it to much. A slight name change on your side (that you then trademark) may be your best bet long term. If another cover band in the States registered your band name today as theirs guess who wins in court?
 
There is some truth to this.
http://www.legalzoom.com/intellectual-p ... over-songs
Click to expand...

in regards to this, and I'm checking the other links as well....ASCAP does actually collect fees from establishments here that do have cover bands on a regular basis. Yes there are some that dont pay the fine, but they also dont advertise as their way of getting around it. But places that do have several bands do pay that fee, its based upon number of bands and how often they have them. One place I've played years past, we were the only band he had, ASCAP wanted him to pay $2k for having us 2, maybe 3 times at most a year. This is a place that has a capacity of 80 people...at most, and that is tight standing room only, no one would ever stay there as it would take forever to get a drink so realistically a good crowd for him would be 50-60, which would easily still be standing room. anyway, point made, which I forgot about with the fees....around here they are absorbed in some fashion by the establishments.
 
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